Calc levels . . .

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Ok tonight I was about to do my weekly water changes and I decided to do a "Random" Calc test. My 90g was down to 340 :smack: which is VERY low compared to what it's been reading lately (low usually in the 410 range). So I attributed this to going 3 weeks between water changes (no :whip: because I've been on vacation). Then just for fun I tested the newly mixed (Monday night mixed) salt water. It's testing at 360 right out of the bucket. This is only the 2nd mix from this bucket so does this mean I have a bad batch or something? The bucket is badly scared on the outside so I can't read what the label says.

I also tested the 10g and 6g and all are almost identical with the newly mixed SW of 360ish.

So what do yall think? Just "Go with it" and add the 2 part Calc?
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
It's Reef Crystals! I guess yall were MIND readers :smack:


:nopity: yall really let me down sometimes!! :lol:
 

mps9506

Well-Known Member
Whats the alk and Mg of the salt mix?
It might be better to just bump it up with calcium chloride until you get through this batch. Also keep testing when you make new batches of water. The salt might not be consistent in make up from the top of the bucket to the bottom.
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
I knew someone would ask THAT question. I NEED a Mg test kit badly! If LFS has one I'll pick it up Saturday!!

I thoroughly mix the salt each time I open the bucket top to bottom. I'm not saying I couldn't have "missed" something but I'm sort of "Anal" about that stuff. Maybe I just need a bigger tank so that I mix ALL the salt at once :D

I'll test Alk and let you know shortly.

:D
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
Reef Crystals is usually higher than that. (I use it to bump up the calcium in IO).

Don't panic. First, make sure your test kit is accurate. Do you have a different test kit you can use?
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Ok guess who does NOT have an Alk test kit... :hallo:

I don't have another Calc test kit... but this is the same one that I've used for about 2 months now.. maybe slightly longer.... it's been reading MUCH higher until tonight! I may try to pick up another one when I go to the LFS on Saturday... heck I may take a sample over there to them for a full run...


grrrrrrrrrrr
 

Frankie

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
I am seriously considering ordering all of my stuff online from now on. I have been waiting for my LFS to get stuff in forever. I just cannot support them if they don't have what i need. Online i can have it asap.
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
I agree Frank. On the GOOD side is one of my LFS's notified me today that he was expecting my shipment of "Rod's Food" in later today or tomorrow. I'm so excited about them ordering that for me and hopefully they'll keep it in stock :)
 

Mattfish

Member
Just reading back on this thread, and FWIW, we got into BIG trouble assuming the NSW was consistent in content. It wasn't and consequently, our Ca, Mg, etc was way off and created havoc. I learned that we have to test every NSW mix for levels of everything we test our tank for and add whatever we need to each mix to bring it to the numbers we want before adding it in.

For us, it was the easiest way to bring the tank back into balance, and also regulate levels now that it's back. For example, we were so Ca defficient for so long that we brought the Ca up gradually to 500 and left it there for a few weeks to give the corals what they needed. Now that they're back to booming, we're going to start backing it down slowly to 450 or so and then to about 420. We'll stop and raise again until we find the best range for our tank.

We also invested in handheld meters for several things - Nitrate, Calcium, Phosphate, and the AC3 Pro for temp, pH, ORP, and Conductivity - took away most of our time-consuming testing and gives us constant (from the controller) or on-demand (handhelds) results with no or little effort. Expensive, but consistent (as long as you periodically calibrate the meters) and more reliable than kits. And at some point, the you hit the crossover and they're cheaper than kits.

We also started ordering online. We tried several places, found the one that's least expensive and get's things here over only 2 days, a nice fast turnaround. Happy to mention the name if anyone wants it.

And finally, the decision to test beforehand meets the old criteria of never dosing what you don't test. NSW is in effect the biggest dosing operation with the widest effect on your tank. That virtually screams that testing before adding is really the most sensible (and if I were going to rant, the most responsible) way to manage your tank.
 

hma

Well-Known Member
Just reading back on this thread, and FWIW, we got into BIG trouble assuming the NSW was consistent in content. It wasn't and consequently, our Ca, Mg, etc was way off and created havoc. I learned that we have to test every NSW mix for levels of everything we test our tank for and add whatever we need to each mix to bring it to the numbers we want before adding it in.

For us, it was the easiest way to bring the tank back into balance, and also regulate levels now that it's back. For example, we were so Ca defficient for so long that we brought the Ca up gradually to 500 and left it there for a few weeks to give the corals what they needed. Now that they're back to booming, we're going to start backing it down slowly to 450 or so and then to about 420. We'll stop and raise again until we find the best range for our tank.

We also invested in handheld meters for several things - Nitrate, Calcium, Phosphate, and the AC3 Pro for temp, pH, ORP, and Conductivity - took away most of our time-consuming testing and gives us constant (from the controller) or on-demand (handhelds) results with no or little effort. Expensive, but consistent (as long as you periodically calibrate the meters) and more reliable than kits. And at some point, the you hit the crossover and they're cheaper than kits.

We also started ordering online. We tried several places, found the one that's least expensive and get's things here over only 2 days, a nice fast turnaround. Happy to mention the name if anyone wants it.

And finally, the decision to test beforehand meets the old criteria of never dosing what you don't test. NSW is in effect the biggest dosing operation with the widest effect on your tank. That virtually screams that testing before adding is really the most sensible (and if I were going to rant, the most responsible) way to manage your tank.

From a calcium level 450 every coral stops the growth and takes up NO MORE CALCIUM. Hence, a calcium level of 500 can never be an advantage. On the contrary, it is dangerous.

I miss the comments of the Mod's or Admins. Such a statement can become absolutely dangerous for beginners in the long term (or for their SPS-corals ).
 
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Mattfish

Member
I could't help but reply, and don't wish to start a fight, but the reply from Heinz makes me realize that there are good forum participants and bad.

The point of a forum is to allow people to learn and express their views with reasonable interplay. Rather than condemnations and responses that a certain reply is "dangerous" and that only mods and admins should be allowed to make posts in response to questions.

I not only get no facts to back up the response - chemically or from experience - but information that runs contrary to other things I've heard. It's entirely possible that Ca of 500 is counterproductive, but I wouldn't have gained that from the reply, nor is my tank imploding or dying yet.

Finally, I didn't realize I had a personal editor to revise every line I add to look for faults rather than any positive value from my comments.....

I guess I, too, long for the days when only valuable comments should be allowed to be posted on public forums, rather than maintaining politeness, civility and information..... See? Looks like I agree with Heinz after all....
 

framerguy

Well-Known Member
FWIW, I also use reef crystals and test each new bucket for alk, calc and mag. I get out my handy dandy chem calculator Reef Chemistry Calculator and ask what it needs to bring it up to specs for a 5g bucket which is how much I mix each time. Each bucket of RC has been different so far. Some have been quite out of whack!
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Yeah I'm "Anal" like that.. I use the cup and thoroughly (or at least in my mind thoroughly) mix it top to bottom each time. This is the 2nc batch from this bucket and I admit I did NOT test the previous mixture :smack:
 

hma

Well-Known Member
I could't help but reply, and don't wish to start a fight, but the reply from Heinz makes me realize that there are good forum participants and bad.

The point of a forum is to allow people to learn and express their views with reasonable interplay. Rather than condemnations and responses that a certain reply is "dangerous" and that only mods and admins should be allowed to make posts in response to questions.

I not only get no facts to back up the response - chemically or from experience - but information that runs contrary to other things I've heard. It's entirely possible that Ca of 500 is counterproductive, but I wouldn't have gained that from the reply, nor is my tank imploding or dying yet.

Finally, I didn't realize I had a personal editor to revise every line I add to look for faults rather than any positive value from my comments.....

I guess I, too, long for the days when only valuable comments should be allowed to be posted on public forums, rather than maintaining politeness, civility and information..... See? Looks like I agree with Heinz after all....


I am a BAD BOY Matt ......:tears:


The calcify process of the corals is returned in the following chemical reaction equation.

Ca2+ + 2HCO3 = Ca(HCO3)2 = CaCO3 + H2CO3
Calcium + Hydrogencarbonat = Calciumhydrogencarbonat = Calciumcarbonat + carbonic acid

Because a rise of the calcium value on 500 with the Kalkwasser method is to be excluded, it would come necessarily to precipitation of the calcium as well as a drastic and possibly dangerous rise of the PH and KH, therefore calcium chloride and natriumhydrogencarbonat CaCl2 / NaHCO3 should have been used. Because of every Calciumion (how from the above equation evidently) needs two Hydrogencarbonat ions to form Calciumhydrogencarbonat, a weight relation of 7 to 8 is to be applied taking into account the element masses Mol (calcium chloride-Dihydrat to Natriumhydrogencarbonat).

CaCl2 + 2 NaHCO3 = Ca2+ + 2HCO3 + 2 NaCl
Calcium chloride + Natriumhydrogencarbonat = calcium + Hydrogencarbonat + sodium chloride

As to see in the equation shown above, are to be added per gramme of calcium, in addition, approx. 2.9 g of common salt (sodium chloride)! Against the calcium and Hydrogencarbonat ions, are used by calcify process and skeletal construction, the sodium chloride is fortified, nevertheless, in the aquarium water. At first sight this seems neglectable, these salts (sodium + chloride) anyhow the main parts of the sea water. Though the resultant density increase, but not the relation of the single ions can be compensated by water change to each other. But exactly this is very dangerous for every sea water aquarium, in the long term it leads to a so-called ION MOVEMENT.



Excuse Al, but this had to be said .
 

Mattfish

Member
Last reply on the subject from me, and then I'll leave it alone. This is meant in a spirit of addressing the scientific information below, and not at a personal level, and I believe that Heinz' comments were given in the same vein.

I'm sure there are situations in which the level of Ca can be dangerous, and that the equations below will make sense. And certainly keeping levels of any primary parameter greatly above the ranges recommended will, over time, cause problems. The issue is really the current tank situation, the level itself, and the amount of time you do it for. Life is made up of guidelines, and not as many rules, although there are obviously some very specific ones in reef tanks. Just as some tanks will live at pH 7.8, others will not, and prefer the normal 8.2 or so.

The proof of that is in my tank, which was low in Ca and Mg, and high in Alk for a while, has completely turned around over the past few weeks by bringing Ca and Mg up to the levels I have, and I have also seen a consequent drop in Alk. Or perhaps I should say that by lowering Alk, I was able to bring my Ca and Mg levels up to where they created a stable situation.

Without being a marine biologist, and a long way from high school science, in our case, the higher range of Ca and Mg has been beneficial to our tank to enable the Mg and Ca starved animals recover and absorb these elements. By absorption of higher range values, the plentiful supply of Ca and Mg was beneficial for a while. Now that we have seen a recovery, it's time to back these values down to the recommended ranges.

I'm as certain that keeping the range high for a little while was much safer than slowly bringing it up to normal and leaving it there. If we had not done what we had done, I'm certain most of our tank would have been dead. Am I right? No one will know. But the proof of viability is in the success. This one worked for me at this time, under the circumstances I had. Dangerous? I don't think so. Ca at 600? Probably would have caused the same problem as Ca at 350 with high Alk, but 500 was safely high enough to ensure availability and was quickly absorbed to bring the level down during the periods between changes. Now my tank is stable and properly metabolizing Ca, Mg, and keeping Alk at it's lowest levels since we've started.

Finally, going back to the reason for my intial post in this thread, our biggest win was measuring the NSW before introduction to ensure levels which would manage to bring us to balance. With our water change today, we're able to see normal tank processes we hadn't seen before and keep much better control of mineral levels. Every step of learing is helpful, and for us, the last 6 weeks have been huge with our tank.
 
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