Wet Foam vs. Dry Foam

Brucey I forgot to mention that my tank is 5 years old and there is plenty of food for any kind of filter feeders.I will also add that after running my skimmer with wet foam I'm not having any problems with hair algae or cyano and all my corals are doing fine.I do 10% of water change every two weeks and do add trace elements.Most of all reefers I know around my area are doing the same thing.I do believe "More is Better"when it comes to keep your reef free of the bad stuff.VINA.
 

Brucey

Well-Known Member
Fair cop Vina .... we all have different methods, and I agree, I run a fairly wet skim myself. I think was just trying to say, you could overskim your tank, For example, my skimmer is rated upto 800 gallons and my LFS has the same skimmer running a system of 1200 gallons .... My tank is only 180 Gallons so I have to be careful not to pull EVERYTHING out of the water. Infact, every 48 hours I turn my skimmer off for an evening, say 4-6 hours and heavily feed the filter feeders with Phyto, Rotifers, Marine snow etc. I don't want the skimmer pulling it out as quicly as I put it in. LOL .... that would be a waste of money
Brucey
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Yea I kinda lean the way of Vina also, My tank is skimmed wet and like a big dog 24/7. I have a ton of sponges, dusters and so on also. I dont think any skimmer can strip the water to the point where it has no detritus/algae in it..although I wish..lol Brucey I do agree with you that thier are certian corals/duster/and so on that do need an ammount of phyto for sure, I was just surprised at the ammount of it you added to your tank.
I think one thing as hobbist we really really must do is to clearify what it is that we keep when we discribe our systems. It is not a matter of different methods for different folks. But is a matter of what we keep in our tanks. My tank for an example is designed to keep low nutrient critters, and corals that require higher nutrients would not fair as well. Its like we all use vehicals but some drive cars and need to use regular gas, some airlplanes and need av gas and so on, this truely should be the way we address of methods of keeping a reef when explaining, I think this is what confuses folks so much on which way to go.

MIke
 

Brucey

Well-Known Member
Mojo .... good thoughts. Your not the only one who is surprised by the amount of Phyto I add .... I am too. I sued to add 2-3 capfulls a day when I was buying for the LFS .... but it was just getting so Dam expensive. Now I'm growing my own for free and I see no reason not to add as much as I can grow in a 24 hours period .... to be honest I could probably add more. I have seen a definate upturn in the polyp expansion on my braching and table acro's since the increase in available Phyto ... does this mean they are more healthy, well no it doesn't, neither does it mean they are happier ..... Look at what happens to turkeys at christmas when we fatten them up, but I must say the colours are more vibrant and I enjoy the thought of growing something for nothing.
Brucey
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Brucey cultureing your own is definately the way to go, its not only cheap its a better product. On the acro's or any sps they dont touch Phytoplankton (not on thier menu), really what you are doing is feeding particular critters, mosts clams/acros/lps dont touch phyto. You are however feeding larvae, some dusters and som sponges (although sponges go both ways. Phytoplanton is almost pure organic phosphate and can actually hurt the growth (calcification) of hard corals, so i would try to limit your feeding to what you know is going to use it and then skim like no other to remove the left over as well as you can, that way you can avoid a build up over time, On a side note lets see a pic of your tank, I dont think I have seen it yet.

MIke
 

Brucey

Well-Known Member
Mojo ..... your a world of info .... OK, I love it when I learn something. How about the Rotifers. I have a rotifer tank that I feed Phyto to as well .... do The Arco's and other SPS eat the Phyto then. I'm really intersted in this now, so my Maxima Clam isn't eating the phyto either .... I may as well stop direct feeding him the stuff them. What about Anenomes, Leathers, Gonipora and other soft corals .... sorry for the questions mate, but all of a sudden something i believed was true is not.

My tank Pics are all in the gallery mate. I'd love your opinions but in the meantime I'll cut back on the Phyto or at least leave the skimmer running

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/photopost/showgallery.php?cat=500&ppuser=166&thumb=1
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Very nice tank Brucey, it looks really healthy. SpS have been know to digest rotifers, but thier main source of food is of coarse thier Zoox algae and the carbs and sugars they produce. They however do suppliment thier intake (about 5 to 10 %) with natural food. It takes alot of energy for a SPS to capture food using nemacysts (little harpoons) and a sps's neamcyst are poorly developed. What they mostly do for supplimental is to farm. They produce a slime that they lay out from thier cicla (sp?) bacteria mostly, but possible rotis attack the slime to eat it and the coral then sucks it back in, capturing the critters that are still attached to it. LPS will be alot more likly to take in roti's for sure same with softies, although with softies alot of nutrient come in via transfering through tissue. On the clams. All clams require feeding of Phyto when they are young and haven not developed enought zoox in thier mantles to be able to sustain them. Usually when the hit the size of about 2 inches they have enough and thus dont require as much if any. Now in saying that some clams will always need feeding via phyto. Clams such as durasa's and gigas I believe, but maybe some one else could chime in on that. The easiest way to figure it out is that if a clam has a high requirement for light its doesnt require much supplimental food source, and if it requires less light then it requires more, that make sence, lol.
Brucey I am not saying that you are doing wrong my friend, at all. Your feeding of phyto could be feeding other critters that may eventually feed them. Its just that Phyto, is such a strong concentration of phosphates that you must keep an eye on water quality. If I was in your position tis is what I would do. Go ahead and feed the things that need the phyto, just cut back a bit and then make sure you skim well to not allow the stuff to die and rot in the tank. With the rotis I would broadcast feed in the dark periods of the tank (at night no lights). So concentrate more towards the roti's, far more better then the other way around.


MIke
 

Brucey

Well-Known Member
Mike, thats fantasitic information, thanks for taking the time to put it all down on paper, well on your keyboard anyway. Yes, my clam is a baby .... Only about 1.5 inches at the moment so I guess he still needs the phyto. Point taken though, and I will cut back. I was falsely under the impression the the SPS and LPS were capturing the phyto as well, which as you indcated they are not. I think I'll concentrate more on the Rotifer production then as I have setup a seperate tank just for them. My Phosphates were dreeping a bit recently and I started to get red slime algae growing but I have recently (Last 3 weeks) setup a external cannister filter running ROWAPhos and the slime algae and Phosphates levels have all but gone.

Once again, really appreciate your input. It's not often you get to learn so much in one. PS, I just love your picture of your clams, do you have to supplement them Nitrate as I understood clams enjoy quite a bit of it and you just have Sooooo many, their amazing. There are a few $ lined up along the front of that tank.

Brucey

Oh one more Q .... How about the anenomes ..... They filter feed right !!!! But again would they be better on Rotifers rather than Phyto
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Brucey I also run a phosphate remover but it will not touch organic phosphates, it only binds inorganic forms. On your phosphates my friend this is how you me and everyone must look at them. If you get a reading off your hobby test kit it is only telling you what the inorganic content is (as that is all they measure). If you show a level of inorganic phosphate then you know that you organic phosphates are completely saturated. Example, inorganic form is the food, organic is the binder. if thier is inorganic phosphate in your tank that means that the orgainc forms are full and cannot take anymore (kinda like the food is left on the plate and the guests are stuffed, lol. This is where the heavy wet skimming comes back into play, with this type of skimming you are removing large ammounts of inorganic and organic types, and thus doing some actual exporting. So its back to real simple my friend, serve dinner of the things you know they like to eat and then clean the plates off for the next meal, keeps the dinning room real clean.


Mike
 

Scooterman

Active Member
I had to take a second glance of the topic, LOL!
When I add a little Phyto I never noticed much difference in any of the corals I have, unless I'd go weeks without adding anything, then it would seem to perk them up momentary. I seldom add anything on a regular basis & I do skim as much as I can, heavy & wet. Some people who use the Eco Mud system don't skim, but that can be discussed later. I always see a need to do more than just skim, every so often I use a 50 Micron sock overnight, & regular WC etc. If I lag on any of it, the first thing I see is algae popping up everywhere. To me adding that much Phyto would cause major algae blooms & cyno, heck my cat doesn't eat that much Burp!
 
Now going back to skimmers!I also noticed like myself many reefers are going back to the old skimmers using wood air diffusers and air pumps.I do see the quality of the air bubbles in terms of size and numbers.
Perhaps the small bubbles in big ammounts is having more time to contac proteins.A big effect with my tank water
quality took place after the switch.I also know forcing air to the skimmer is better than the sucking effect that the venturi style has.What do you guys think about this topic?VINA
 

Scooterman

Active Member
Humm, I wonder If I added a small air pump to mine, wonder if it would work better, that is a good idea!
Curts, get in line bud.:eek:
 

Brucey

Well-Known Member
I always thought needle wheel skimmers were better ... or perhaps it is just that the wooden airstones needed replacing quite often ???

Sorry I digressed off the subject thread (Just a little ??? LOL)

brucey
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
You know I have tried avoiding commenting on that article, as Eric is a friend. But man if you really read it, there are some things to shake your head at.
Looking at the skimming part for example.
Yes, you can. Far too many works have dealt with various aspects of protein skimming. I still feel there is too little information on exactly what, how much, and how effectively foam fractionation affects various components of the water column of reef aquaria.
In one breathe he says that you can skim to much, and in the same breathe says he doesnt know enough about it and that it is an unkown????
Then
For the most part, protein skimmers are employed as water quality control devices to maintain low levels of organic and some inorganic materials, notably compounds containing nitrogen and phosphorous commonly linked to degraded water quality not conducive to the growth of many reef species such as corals
Ok works for me but then
My point is that once nutrient levels are low and conducive to a healthy aquarium, and until other secondarily important aspects of protein skimming are experimentally validated and quantified, any skimming over that required to maintain low levels of organic and inorganic pollutants is overskimming. Why? Because if the water is cleared of those things that are detrimental, it is also likely to be equally cleared of things that are beneficial
I hate this stuff. What are the acceptable levels he is refering to????? He states that secondary aspects should not be looked at until scientific study is done, but throws a blanket staement out like "it is also LIKELY". for me you live with the sword you die by it. If you're scientific for one then lets see the scientific for the other.
There is no advantage to a constantly stripped water column in all but a very few specialized situations.
well I have alot of equipment on my reef, and the likelyhood that I could even come close to totally low nutrient levels as the reefs in the wild are is a snow balls chance in hell, so how can anyone achieve stripped water. Oh and if you have figured it out let me know I would love to give that a go.
And the last statement when he offers his solution he states
(I think this likely, especially if activated carbon is employed).
So ditch the skimmer and use carbon in its place. Thats not even ...well I wont say that.
If you carefully read all of the articles you will see that they are designed to stay in line with the overall concepts of his stuff, and are written in such a manner that allows a lot of excape holes if he is caught or wants to change direction. Not much else to really say about the article beyond "I guess he couldnt just write an article that says use a large skimmer and be done with it"

Anyway my two cents, for what thier worth.


Mike
 
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