Tongan Rock Ban
- Thread starter SubRosa
- Start date
nickf06gli
Member
Tonga live rock, im new to the saltwater liverock, which is the best? Also what make it the best?
SubRosa
Well-Known Member
Personally I think we as aquarists can do something about the ban.Exports for the ornamental trade are Tonga's #2 revenue producer.A boycott of all live stock from Tonga would go a long way towards convincing the govt of Tonga that a ban on exports is not in their best interests.
John
John
Triggerjay
Well-Known Member
Its not the Tonga govt... Its CITES... 
Jason
Jason
Wolfgang8810
Active Member
I have a few pieces of tonga branch and tonga shelf but i prefer fiji much better mostly because tonga is 5.50 a lb and fiji is 3.5o a lb.
SubRosa
Well-Known Member
This ban is most definitely not initiated by CITES, although Tonga's strained relationship with CITES is well known.This is allegedly about collection practices of live rock, but there are alot of implications that don't bode well for anyone from what I can see.And as far as promoting my agenda I was a hobbyist before I entered the trade, was a hobbyist during periods that I worked outside the trade,am currently a hobbyist and will be a hobbyist as long as I can flip a switch.I want the maximum amount of diversity available to me as a consumer.If that's in agreement with my business needs GREAT!How many people complain about how their work and personal lives are at odds with each other?You are of course entitled to your beliefs.
John
John
Hmm, I was not going to look further into this but now that the arguments have started i am curious now just why the ban has started and are the reefs in Tonga being exploited that harshly to ban like this. Personally i don't care if they ban this rock. It's not my first pick. But by doing so it could have negative impact on the rock harvesting trade all over. Think Fiji has troubles now, imagine whats going to happen if they end up the only rock avalible.
lcstorc
Well-Known Member
Guess I can make a fortune off of selling mine. I have a ton of branch in that I bought for the seahorse tank. Not my favorite to work with at all but makes great hitching posts.
I am like Frankie and would want to investigate why the ban is being placed. If it is to protect the natural reefs them I say good move. If another reason then not so much.
Meanwhile we are becoming much better at cultivating base rock and making it live. Obviously that is the way of the future since we can't take rock out of the ocean forever.
I am like Frankie and would want to investigate why the ban is being placed. If it is to protect the natural reefs them I say good move. If another reason then not so much.
Meanwhile we are becoming much better at cultivating base rock and making it live. Obviously that is the way of the future since we can't take rock out of the ocean forever.
There will be maricultured rock from there still. Which of course will mean that a lot of (illegal) natural wild rock will be shipped along with the maricultured rock. There have been agencies working to set up mariculture operations up just about every where. There has been maricultured rock shipped from there already, and there has been maricultured rock coming from Fiji for years, it is cultured lava rock (pumice stone).
That entire area of the world is pretty much over run with organizations trying to stop the reef plundering without stopping the industry completely because the livelihood of too many people over there depend on the money they are making from coral, rock and ornamental fish and lesser invertebrates.
Things will change but they are not going to stop anything completely. The products we get however will change for the most part.
Then there are organizations (.org) that grow corals and sell aqua cultured rocks and such that will not be cut off, such as GARF as they are a research institution not a for profit organization so they will not be cut off. Panic will however shoot the prices up.
There are still corals coming from Australia, Japan and Hawaii where their harvest is illegal, so laws are not always completely effective. But look at the prices of those Corals from Japan, Hawaii and Australia.
Of course there are also probably a few thousand Blue Tort corals out there being called Tyree limiteds that are selling for huge sums, and we all know there can not be that many descendants from just one coral that quickly.
That entire area of the world is pretty much over run with organizations trying to stop the reef plundering without stopping the industry completely because the livelihood of too many people over there depend on the money they are making from coral, rock and ornamental fish and lesser invertebrates.
Things will change but they are not going to stop anything completely. The products we get however will change for the most part.
Then there are organizations (.org) that grow corals and sell aqua cultured rocks and such that will not be cut off, such as GARF as they are a research institution not a for profit organization so they will not be cut off. Panic will however shoot the prices up.
There are still corals coming from Australia, Japan and Hawaii where their harvest is illegal, so laws are not always completely effective. But look at the prices of those Corals from Japan, Hawaii and Australia.
Of course there are also probably a few thousand Blue Tort corals out there being called Tyree limiteds that are selling for huge sums, and we all know there can not be that many descendants from just one coral that quickly.
lcstorc
Well-Known Member
I read an article a while back talking about the effort to save the reef while continuing to support the economy.
I don't remember where it was but they had a large area full of corals and a large aquaculture facility. Basically they went out and fragged the mother colonies every so often and grew out the frags to sell and bring in income. The locals were working by either gathering or supporting and shipping the frags and the mother colonies are still there to continue to grow and provide frags for the future.
I remember thinking at the time that it was a great idea.
I don't remember where it was but they had a large area full of corals and a large aquaculture facility. Basically they went out and fragged the mother colonies every so often and grew out the frags to sell and bring in income. The locals were working by either gathering or supporting and shipping the frags and the mother colonies are still there to continue to grow and provide frags for the future.
I remember thinking at the time that it was a great idea.
lcstorc,
Please go to this site and register. You can use a ficticous name and title or whatever but you need to provide a legitimate email to log on the first time. You must log on o download documents and articles, other wise you can only review abstracts of the articles. The poaters are some of the most noted rsearchers in the world in the fields of marine biology, ichtiology, biology,chemistry etc. It is a professional posting sit, but quite afew of the write up are presented in very understandable laymens terms. There are many reports on the progressetting up mariculture facilities over seas, and loads of dat that is almost incomprehensible. Wait until you see the numbers on how many tons of live rock we import every year, or the number of corals or number of fish etc. Very, very, very shocking numbers. Even more shocking is how little the people are paid for them, versus what we pay for them here. There are also hundreds of sad facts and photos of death and destruction.
Better yet, I will PM you the link.
Please go to this site and register. You can use a ficticous name and title or whatever but you need to provide a legitimate email to log on the first time. You must log on o download documents and articles, other wise you can only review abstracts of the articles. The poaters are some of the most noted rsearchers in the world in the fields of marine biology, ichtiology, biology,chemistry etc. It is a professional posting sit, but quite afew of the write up are presented in very understandable laymens terms. There are many reports on the progressetting up mariculture facilities over seas, and loads of dat that is almost incomprehensible. Wait until you see the numbers on how many tons of live rock we import every year, or the number of corals or number of fish etc. Very, very, very shocking numbers. Even more shocking is how little the people are paid for them, versus what we pay for them here. There are also hundreds of sad facts and photos of death and destruction.
Better yet, I will PM you the link.
Octoman
Well-Known Member
Here Mark, I copied and pasted it for those who don't wish to visit that site:
From Walt Smith,
Tonga Ban Hi All,
Since I was asked to weigh in on this issue and possibly shine some light on the facts I am happy to oblige.
It is true; the rock ban goes into effect on August 4th. Our only hope at this point is a proposal I have sent to Fisheries that outlines a more feasible phase out period.
In a letter sent to all the shippers (informing them of the ban) they were of the view that cultured rock could easily replace the harvest because the “technology already exist”. What they did not take into account was the fact that cultured rock must first be made and then put into the ocean for about 18 months before it is any good. Buying all of the raw materials such as cement, pumice, sand, iron oxide and a cement mixer plus all the labor is very expensive over the course of 18 months with no income to support this activity.
I have suggested a two year phase out period with the operator showing proof of aquaculture involvement and investment by January 09. If any one operator does not show proof then no further export permits will be issued to that operator.
I feel very used in this scenario because at the end of last year I was asked by fisheries to come over and give a presentation to them on how I grow corals and make live rock in Fiji. They asked many questions after my presentation and I felt encouraged that the bill to allow aquaculture would finally be passed because at that point it was not yet legal.
Well, to make a long story short, they used that presentation against the industry stating that “the technology already exist” and went on to impose the ban as soon as aquaculture was made legal. What I mean by legal is that there was no format, rules or protocol in the fisheries guidelines that had been passed by cabinet at that point so it was not allowed.
The result is no more live rock and 50% reduction on the coral quota.
I was also called into the National Economic Development Council last April to give a presentation to cabinet members on the sustainability of our export. Once they were satisfied with my report they ordered fisheries to carry out a resource assessment and environmental impact study BEFORE any bans were put in place. Fisheries ignored this demand (which is highly unusual) and did what they wanted anyway. They said that they already had the proof they needed. …… this is where your stories originate from.
A long, long time ago in a far away land named Tonga there was a fish and coral exporter and life was good. Soon there came other exporters and life got a little more complicated. Some exporters were good and some only interested in cashing in on some mystical good life. Ok back to reality!
There soon were 5 exporters with three fairly stable operations and experienced personnel. One of the other operators had plenty of trouble staying alive and the business changed hands several times with each change more and more desperate and unsustainable acts took place. The fifth company arrived made a big splash with lots of divers, big boats and illegal immigrants (over the amount allowed) and broke all sorts of rules getting some negative attention from fisheries.
Fisheries then gave permission for one of these two operators to set up a coral farm right under their noses at the fisheries facility. This “farm” was established by bringing in some “expert” from a fish store in the states and really making a mess. Just a bunch of broken off pieces of coral scattered around in the tanks so that they could be exempt from the coral quota the rest of us had to adhere to. After about a year they realized that they had a mountain of dead coral right outside their back door and started to take pictures of the damage. To make matters worse, this inexperienced “expert” went on the web (I think here) and started showing off horrifying pictures of himself walking all over the reef and holding up massive pieces of coral. This really concerned me as he was bringing all the wrong sort attention to our industry and a very uninformed, unsustainable practice was carried out right under their nose.
This is when they brought me in to demonstrate what a real coral farm should look like. I remember them asking me questions about the “farm” at their facility as if they doubted the validity of those efforts as only a ploy to evade quota restrictions. Since I did set them straight with my presentation and movie it is a shame they used this as an excuse to shut a totally viable and sustainable industry down.
About the insensitive comments regarding the workers this will present a huge problem to the economy. Since they burned the town down in 19 months ago unemployment is out of control … there simply are no jobs to be had. The Tongan government will not realize about 8 million in export trade, the countries second largest export and Air New Zealand is threatening to pull the direct flight making it very difficult to travel to and from Tonga. Once the direct flight is gone it will also be very difficult to ship whatever coral and fish we are allowed. I suspect most (if not all) exporters will simply close up shop leaving a large hole in the already fragile economy.
To answer more direct questions; our company has never been thrown out of any meeting, we only practice the most sustainable and proven methods for harvest and we continue to set the best practice examples for our industry. It is a shame that the good guys will suffer for the acts of a careless few.
Sorry for the long post but you asked for it. We are praying for a reinstatement of the policy and at least order the study and impose a reasonable phase out before August 4th or it will be too late then to do much about it.
Walt
__________________
Love the Reef, Love your Hobby, Respect our Planet
From Walt Smith,
Tonga Ban Hi All,
Since I was asked to weigh in on this issue and possibly shine some light on the facts I am happy to oblige.
It is true; the rock ban goes into effect on August 4th. Our only hope at this point is a proposal I have sent to Fisheries that outlines a more feasible phase out period.
In a letter sent to all the shippers (informing them of the ban) they were of the view that cultured rock could easily replace the harvest because the “technology already exist”. What they did not take into account was the fact that cultured rock must first be made and then put into the ocean for about 18 months before it is any good. Buying all of the raw materials such as cement, pumice, sand, iron oxide and a cement mixer plus all the labor is very expensive over the course of 18 months with no income to support this activity.
I have suggested a two year phase out period with the operator showing proof of aquaculture involvement and investment by January 09. If any one operator does not show proof then no further export permits will be issued to that operator.
I feel very used in this scenario because at the end of last year I was asked by fisheries to come over and give a presentation to them on how I grow corals and make live rock in Fiji. They asked many questions after my presentation and I felt encouraged that the bill to allow aquaculture would finally be passed because at that point it was not yet legal.
Well, to make a long story short, they used that presentation against the industry stating that “the technology already exist” and went on to impose the ban as soon as aquaculture was made legal. What I mean by legal is that there was no format, rules or protocol in the fisheries guidelines that had been passed by cabinet at that point so it was not allowed.
The result is no more live rock and 50% reduction on the coral quota.
I was also called into the National Economic Development Council last April to give a presentation to cabinet members on the sustainability of our export. Once they were satisfied with my report they ordered fisheries to carry out a resource assessment and environmental impact study BEFORE any bans were put in place. Fisheries ignored this demand (which is highly unusual) and did what they wanted anyway. They said that they already had the proof they needed. …… this is where your stories originate from.
A long, long time ago in a far away land named Tonga there was a fish and coral exporter and life was good. Soon there came other exporters and life got a little more complicated. Some exporters were good and some only interested in cashing in on some mystical good life. Ok back to reality!
There soon were 5 exporters with three fairly stable operations and experienced personnel. One of the other operators had plenty of trouble staying alive and the business changed hands several times with each change more and more desperate and unsustainable acts took place. The fifth company arrived made a big splash with lots of divers, big boats and illegal immigrants (over the amount allowed) and broke all sorts of rules getting some negative attention from fisheries.
Fisheries then gave permission for one of these two operators to set up a coral farm right under their noses at the fisheries facility. This “farm” was established by bringing in some “expert” from a fish store in the states and really making a mess. Just a bunch of broken off pieces of coral scattered around in the tanks so that they could be exempt from the coral quota the rest of us had to adhere to. After about a year they realized that they had a mountain of dead coral right outside their back door and started to take pictures of the damage. To make matters worse, this inexperienced “expert” went on the web (I think here) and started showing off horrifying pictures of himself walking all over the reef and holding up massive pieces of coral. This really concerned me as he was bringing all the wrong sort attention to our industry and a very uninformed, unsustainable practice was carried out right under their nose.
This is when they brought me in to demonstrate what a real coral farm should look like. I remember them asking me questions about the “farm” at their facility as if they doubted the validity of those efforts as only a ploy to evade quota restrictions. Since I did set them straight with my presentation and movie it is a shame they used this as an excuse to shut a totally viable and sustainable industry down.
About the insensitive comments regarding the workers this will present a huge problem to the economy. Since they burned the town down in 19 months ago unemployment is out of control … there simply are no jobs to be had. The Tongan government will not realize about 8 million in export trade, the countries second largest export and Air New Zealand is threatening to pull the direct flight making it very difficult to travel to and from Tonga. Once the direct flight is gone it will also be very difficult to ship whatever coral and fish we are allowed. I suspect most (if not all) exporters will simply close up shop leaving a large hole in the already fragile economy.
To answer more direct questions; our company has never been thrown out of any meeting, we only practice the most sustainable and proven methods for harvest and we continue to set the best practice examples for our industry. It is a shame that the good guys will suffer for the acts of a careless few.
Sorry for the long post but you asked for it. We are praying for a reinstatement of the policy and at least order the study and impose a reasonable phase out before August 4th or it will be too late then to do much about it.
Walt
__________________
Love the Reef, Love your Hobby, Respect our Planet
I really do not know about all the blaming of this person, or that person, or which ever exporter, or what ever firms manager from what ever fish store. It has been known for over a decade that organizations have been trying to bring this about all over the tropical regions of the world. The responsibility lied with all who set up operations over there to export coral reef products to assist in promoting or even to help finance the switch to mariculture if they expected to keep exporting a product. This is not a new thing that snuck up on anyone. Maybe something someone thought/hoped could be postponed, but considering we are an exploiting nation and that is proven by a long undisputable historical record it is not surprising that the ban was put in effect without the consideration of the exporters or the U.S. consumers. In the short run, will a lot of people in Tonga suffer? Yes, but so did the people of the OPEC nations suffer when they took over there own oil production instead of letting the US exploit their oil resources as they saw fit. But, the last I heard the government of Kuwait took in approxiamtely $600,000 dollars in oil revenue for each citizen of Kuwait last year. If we really cared about the people of Tonga we would have already have seen to it that the mariculture facilities were in place long ago, not wait until we were cut off from further exploitation of there resources and then scream out about the plight of the Tonga people. There is no reason to even discuss the economics of the switch to mariculture. That has been repeatedly studied and there are many reports and research paerpers on these works and studies. Costs would go up to the end users, profits by the suppliers would go down and money earned by the people of Tonga would increase as the labor needed would increase any the prices as sold to the U.S. supplier would increase. Where ever the suppliers go it will just happen there also. The world has changed. Are county is well known and it is not all that good what we are known for.
The working people of Tonga do not have the money for such an investment, they are just trying to survive and eat. The government was just waiting for some one else to pay for the development, just as did the other countries. The buyers were there to help themselves to coral products. Unlike other businesses where huge sums of outside money is invested in infrastructure, the keeping of rock in piles on the beaches or docks until sold does not require those investments, so making further investments to protect prior investments was obviously not much of an issue. I have not seen Walt say why he did not invest in helping assure the continuation of coral imports through helping the Tonga people develop mariculture. I really doubt that a government who's people are barely surviving by selling live rock for pennies on the dollar to U.S. buyers has the money to invest in assuring an uninterrupted supply of money making products to the U.S. buyers. I am not trying to say that Mr. Smith is the bad guy, only that they (he and the other buyers) were in the position to prevent this from having such an impact and obviously would have most benefited from it not happening as it did but did not obviously work to prevent it with investments in mariculture. I really do not think we should expect environmental organizations to be going to each individual country and setting up that mariculture system. They have already proven the system will work through projects they have started and fully studied and documented in other countries. The fisheries had obviously gotten tired of excuses and delays when nothing had further had come from those delays but further destruction of the coral systems. They obviously put it in simple words when they said, "the technology already exists." Perhaps Walt will ask himself and the other buyers why they did not assist the Tonga people to develop mariculture as the technology already existed.
funkpolice
Active Member
I'm sure it had to do with money. Take what you can as cheap as you can with little or no regard for anyone else. Unfortunately it the American way.
bill
bill