bluespotjawfish
Well-Known Member
vn reef - welcome!
Anyone else I missed?
Anyone else I missed?
The Bluespot Club
- Thread starter bluespotjawfish
- Start date
sneaks03
Member
Ok so maybe experience for specifically for the BSJF is not what I meant. I mean in keeping a SW tank as a whole and I would like to read up on these guys before jumping into one since they are so expensive. But my inner kid is telling me to get one, but i know better than that. Don't want to kill a high priced fish yet.
bluespotjawfish
Well-Known Member
You will enjoy a Bluespot more after you have more experience. In the meantime, you can live vicariously through us!
I think it is time for more pictures everyone...
I think it is time for more pictures everyone...
kwpgrooming
New Member
sneaks03
Member
Sounds like he was just looking for a good adrenaline rush...lol
Basser1
Member
SeahorseBT
Active Member
Pssstt..........
I have a surprise!
Well? Where are the pics?!?!?
Basser1
Member
Soon, my friend, Soon.......
Basser1
Member
O.K. ......... Drumroll Please.......
Heerrreess........ DUGGER!!
As some of you know, I lost my BSJF (Digger), last week due to my negligence. Digger had been with me for over a year and a half and provided me and my family with a lot of enjoyment. I knew I had to get another one right away. So last week, my LFS called and said he had some coming in. I went in on Sunday and picked him up. I didn't realize just how big Digger was, until I saw the dealers' BSJF! Dugger is quite a bit smaller and will have some growing to do!
So far, he seems to be adjusting to his new surroundings really well. Digger had at least 3 burrows and all of them was connected by tunnels that he made. The new BSJF seems to have adopted Diggers' burrows. As a matter of fact, he's peeking out of one of Diggers burrows! He's eating very well, frozen mysis and NLS pellets. And I have decided to name him Dugger, in memory of Digger.
As he gets used to his new surroundings more, I hope to get better pics. Glad to be back in the club!
SeahorseBT
Active Member
Welcome back! I'm glad he's eating!
Hello all, while this is my first post, I must say I have a lot to say, lol. Since I read the 305-ish posts, hope you don’t mind this being a little long so please near with me. I have just read this complete thread in 3 days so I feel like I have a virtual Bluespot, I know(?) them so well. I know I am supposed to slowly venture in and work my way up, but, this post may sound a little bold, stern and even crass but please don’t take it that way. I have been in the saltwater hobby for a year now and have read a lot. I don’t know everything and always learn new things but I am not wet behind the ears either.
Okay, wow, well, where do I begin? I want to cover the mortality rate and bat that around a little. We, unlike the ocean’s survival of the fittest, care about our fish and take great pains to help these pups survive, grow, prosper and be happy. I see too many of these fish dying and do not understand as of yet why, so, I will run through a few ideas.
First we have to remember where they start from, the ocean. Since they seem to be just fine in the ocean, so, the next problem/obstacle (provided a fish has not eaten them) they run across is capture. If they use cyanide, the end. If they just get a stick shoved up their bum then we go to the next step, shipping stress. While most believe under a month deaths (in the tank) are from shipping stress, I am not so sure how that can be?
How long does it take to go from the beach to the Cali LFS, a week or so? Surely by the time they got there they would be starting to act funny, but, they either make it or croak. Okay, so let’s say they made it to the store. A week goes by and they are still alive. Now, that’s two weeks and by then I would expect to see heavy breathing, flailing and or some odd behavior with them if they are on their way out.
Hmm, now we need to get into their slime coat for a second. That is their main source of infection defense. If they got all of that rubbed off on the way, well we may be on to something but wait, let’s not jump the gun. By the second week, they should be in the pet store in a semi quiet tank. Not all stores but the majority of them I would venture to say. A week chilling should be long enough for them to get their slime coat back up to par. Unless they are flailing around in the tank, there is nothing to remove it, so, it should be growing back.
Okay, so, slime coat growing back, check. Now we have mental stress to work with. Sure, they are wondering “where the h*ll am I?”, so, this leads to either they eat or don’t eat. If they don’t eat, the end. If they do eat then they can not be that stressed to the point it kills them, sorry, I just do not buy it, especially if they are eating. Stressed fish simply do not eat! Semi stressed, well maybe.
Now to the point they made it to the fish store and they made it to our tanks. A month later they croak. I will want to start with the slime coat, again. Let’s say, for the sake of argument that they did lose it, all of it. Now, again for the sake of argument they got all kinds of icky things festering through them. What meds should be used (assuming this is the average fish) to fight the unknown bacteria? Should we use a gram negative antibiotic, gram posotive? (names please ) .
Second thing is internal intestinal parasites, that’s the next thing that needs to be addressed. What meds to use for that?
Once those questions are debated and squared away, we can go on to the rest, like tank temp, foods, how long they actually live in the wild….etc.
Wasn’t Frankie going to get an autopsy done on his BS popsicle? Did he ever do that? Did I miss the results? I remember someone saying they did one and found worms in the gills??? I have to go back and recheck and start making notes. I wanted to get through this thread first to share my thoughts .
bluespotjawfish: Whats the word on the egg factory? Did i miss something twice!? I read your BS has had eggs a few times in her belly, but, I cant remember if you said that you saw them, if the male came over and scooped them up or.... ???
I scanned a lot so I may have missed a lot too.
Okay, wow, well, where do I begin? I want to cover the mortality rate and bat that around a little. We, unlike the ocean’s survival of the fittest, care about our fish and take great pains to help these pups survive, grow, prosper and be happy. I see too many of these fish dying and do not understand as of yet why, so, I will run through a few ideas.
First we have to remember where they start from, the ocean. Since they seem to be just fine in the ocean, so, the next problem/obstacle (provided a fish has not eaten them) they run across is capture. If they use cyanide, the end. If they just get a stick shoved up their bum then we go to the next step, shipping stress. While most believe under a month deaths (in the tank) are from shipping stress, I am not so sure how that can be?
How long does it take to go from the beach to the Cali LFS, a week or so? Surely by the time they got there they would be starting to act funny, but, they either make it or croak. Okay, so let’s say they made it to the store. A week goes by and they are still alive. Now, that’s two weeks and by then I would expect to see heavy breathing, flailing and or some odd behavior with them if they are on their way out.
Hmm, now we need to get into their slime coat for a second. That is their main source of infection defense. If they got all of that rubbed off on the way, well we may be on to something but wait, let’s not jump the gun. By the second week, they should be in the pet store in a semi quiet tank. Not all stores but the majority of them I would venture to say. A week chilling should be long enough for them to get their slime coat back up to par. Unless they are flailing around in the tank, there is nothing to remove it, so, it should be growing back.
Okay, so, slime coat growing back, check. Now we have mental stress to work with. Sure, they are wondering “where the h*ll am I?”, so, this leads to either they eat or don’t eat. If they don’t eat, the end. If they do eat then they can not be that stressed to the point it kills them, sorry, I just do not buy it, especially if they are eating. Stressed fish simply do not eat! Semi stressed, well maybe.
Now to the point they made it to the fish store and they made it to our tanks. A month later they croak. I will want to start with the slime coat, again. Let’s say, for the sake of argument that they did lose it, all of it. Now, again for the sake of argument they got all kinds of icky things festering through them. What meds should be used (assuming this is the average fish) to fight the unknown bacteria? Should we use a gram negative antibiotic, gram posotive? (names please
) .Second thing is internal intestinal parasites, that’s the next thing that needs to be addressed. What meds to use for that?
Once those questions are debated and squared away, we can go on to the rest, like tank temp, foods, how long they actually live in the wild….etc.
Wasn’t Frankie going to get an autopsy done on his BS popsicle? Did he ever do that? Did I miss the results? I remember someone saying they did one and found worms in the gills??? I have to go back and recheck and start making notes. I wanted to get through this thread first to share my thoughts
.bluespotjawfish: Whats the word on the egg factory? Did i miss something twice!? I read your BS has had eggs a few times in her belly, but, I cant remember if you said that you saw them, if the male came over and scooped them up or.... ???
I scanned a lot so I may have missed a lot too.
lcstorc
Well-Known Member
Welcome to RS and to our Bluespot forum.
There is a lot in your post and I am short on time but I did want to say a couple of things. Lately (I would say the last year) we are seeing more and more blues stay alive for an extended period of time. I have heard nothing about the mysterious bluespot disease you used to read about in quite a while. I would say the #1 killer at this point is an improperly covered tank. Many people just don't understand how small of a space they can get out of. I have personally seen them jump through squares in eggcrate.
Personally, I think some deaths may be caused by hitting their heads on a hard topped surface. It is just a theory of mine but I have had my tank covered with screen for some time and now have it covered with pond netting.
I do know that if they are not given enough rubble of various sizes they can/will go on a hunger strike. My male has done this several times. Each time, I add a handful of new rubble he eats at the next meal.
I also have a recently proven pair. My male started flashing and shortly after the female was visibly pregnant. I honestly do not know what happened from there. One day she wasn't pregnant and he hid in his burrow with the door shut for a day. The next day he was out and about as usual. No idea what happened there but since this is their first attempt at parenting I was not too suprised.
I know Scott did an autopsy on one of the blues that died but the results do not come to mind. I'll see if I can find where they are posted for you.
There is a lot in your post and I am short on time but I did want to say a couple of things. Lately (I would say the last year) we are seeing more and more blues stay alive for an extended period of time. I have heard nothing about the mysterious bluespot disease you used to read about in quite a while. I would say the #1 killer at this point is an improperly covered tank. Many people just don't understand how small of a space they can get out of. I have personally seen them jump through squares in eggcrate.
Personally, I think some deaths may be caused by hitting their heads on a hard topped surface. It is just a theory of mine but I have had my tank covered with screen for some time and now have it covered with pond netting.
I do know that if they are not given enough rubble of various sizes they can/will go on a hunger strike. My male has done this several times. Each time, I add a handful of new rubble he eats at the next meal.
I also have a recently proven pair. My male started flashing and shortly after the female was visibly pregnant. I honestly do not know what happened from there. One day she wasn't pregnant and he hid in his burrow with the door shut for a day. The next day he was out and about as usual. No idea what happened there but since this is their first attempt at parenting I was not too suprised.
I know Scott did an autopsy on one of the blues that died but the results do not come to mind. I'll see if I can find where they are posted for you.
Hello lcstorc, good to see you still around, thanks for taking a second to stop in and say hey. Yea, I had a lot in that post. Was trying to keep it short but after 305 pages, I have sooo many stored thoughts, lol.
I have a few more theorys about the white spot disease too, but, I am not grouping that into the shipping/tank "stress" yet. My first goal "I" would like to see is to cover the grounds of getting the BSJF into our tanks squeaky clean and then take it from there. I belive if the fish is clean and free of parasites, the rest is down hill (in a good way).
I know exactly how wiley they are. I had a QT tank for some gobeys. I had a red banded shrimp goby jump. The tank was 99% covered except for one small 1/4" (thats right 1/4") hole and he jumped through it. I was soo mad because I paid 1 1/2 times the normal amount for him. I had to have him because of his very outgoing personality. Not only that, but, the top was glass. How he knew that 1/4" hole was the way out was beyond me, still Psss'z me off, lol.
Wow, you have a breeding pair now? Congrats!! Do share your observations on the breeding sequence when you get a chance.
I have a few more theorys about the white spot disease too, but, I am not grouping that into the shipping/tank "stress" yet. My first goal "I" would like to see is to cover the grounds of getting the BSJF into our tanks squeaky clean and then take it from there. I belive if the fish is clean and free of parasites, the rest is down hill (in a good way).
I know exactly how wiley they are. I had a QT tank for some gobeys. I had a red banded shrimp goby jump. The tank was 99% covered except for one small 1/4" (thats right 1/4") hole and he jumped through it. I was soo mad because I paid 1 1/2 times the normal amount for him. I had to have him because of his very outgoing personality. Not only that, but, the top was glass. How he knew that 1/4" hole was the way out was beyond me, still Psss'z me off, lol.
Wow, you have a breeding pair now? Congrats!! Do share your observations on the breeding sequence when you get a chance.
lcstorc
Well-Known Member
Well, I don't know if you can properly call them a breeding pair but they are working on it. I have a male that has been flashing for a while and the female was pregnant but I don't know what happened after that other than he is not holding the eggs. I continue to watch and learn.
The key really is to get healthy fish to begin with. I really don't know anything about the collection methods but I have been seeing more and more healthy fish in my LFS lately. I watch them for several weeks and feed them every time I stop by. Almost all of them look healthy and eat well. When I started keeping these fish I would see quite a few before I found one that was healthy and eating. I wish I had the means to bring them all home since I believe given good care they would do just fine in a reef tank.
The key really is to get healthy fish to begin with. I really don't know anything about the collection methods but I have been seeing more and more healthy fish in my LFS lately. I watch them for several weeks and feed them every time I stop by. Almost all of them look healthy and eat well. When I started keeping these fish I would see quite a few before I found one that was healthy and eating. I wish I had the means to bring them all home since I believe given good care they would do just fine in a reef tank.
Thats the thing I am thinking, get a good one but that does not always happen, whether we know it or not.
If they come in battered but still eating, just a little, I do not see why we can not bring them back to health. Give them peace and quiet, some food and fix the hidden secret that ails them they would be golden. My first goal would be to find that magic bullet that cures what ails them. We need a few necropsy on them puppies, especially the ones that die with the white patches on them. Sorry, not trying to ..... beat_dead_horse
but I belive 50% of thier longevity rides on it, not to mention I dont want to bring some kind of nasty into my tank.
If they come in battered but still eating, just a little, I do not see why we can not bring them back to health. Give them peace and quiet, some food and fix the hidden secret that ails them they would be golden. My first goal would be to find that magic bullet that cures what ails them. We need a few necropsy on them puppies, especially the ones that die with the white patches on them. Sorry, not trying to ..... beat_dead_horse
but I belive 50% of thier longevity rides on it, not to mention I dont want to bring some kind of nasty into my tank.
I am wondering where she is, have not seen her. Then again, I have not payed attention to the timelines of when people posted so I do not know the avearge posting times.
Non the less, while I was looking for some info about my Ich-y friends, or how to make sure they get Ich free if they "do" have anything..... I came across this bit of info.
It still does not tell me anything about what oddities (parasites) they have from there native dwellings, but, maybe, this is what we need and would help to keep the ones that make it to the pet store stay alive?
Edited:
"Plasma catecholamine concentrations can remain high for days after fish have been stressed. Hydromineral or osmotic disturbance is an inherent part of stress in fish. Stress causes the loss of water and influx of ions in saltwater fish. Conversely, stress causes the influx of water and loss of ions in freshwater. The initial severity of a stressor such as handling and transfer determines the degree of osmotic disturbance rather than the duration of that stress.
Stress interferes with macrophage function and other immune system processes in general. When immune function is inhibited fish become more susceptible to disease. These disease problems can be delayed 1 to 3 weeks after a stressful event. This is could lead to the death of fish in what is known as the "Delayed Mortality Syndrome. Netting and removing fish from the water is highly stressful. Exposure to air for thirty seconds after exercise significantly increases mortality rates and blood lactate concentration in fish.
Pretreating fish with an immune system stimulant such as Beta 1,3D glucan will help them to proliferate the production of macrophage and enhance major host defenses of the immune system. Orally administrating Beta glucan will stimulate immune function, helping fish to overcome or avoid infection. Animal studies indicate that Beta glucan is safe to administer in a wide dosage range. A dosage of 4mg/lb. per day is recommended.
Netting and chasing fish during capture are frequent sources of injury and stress. Fish cannot easily see clear polyethylene bags or specimen containers that can be used instead of nets for capture, transfer and handling. Since the fish cannot see them, capture should be quicker and safer. The fish will also be less likely to become exhausted trying to avoid capture. Removing fish from their native environment (water) is highly stressful and often causes injury. Fish captured in a clear plastic bag or specimen container never have to be removed from water during transfer and handling."
Though it is said that
"Pretreating fish with an immune system stimulant such as Beta 1,3D glucan will help them to proliferate the production of macrophage ......."
works, this is a pre treatment that we have no control over. I would need to do more research on this to see if there are any post health benifits. Then again, another catch is that if it indeed does help post treatment, one would have to take a stressed sick fish home right away. I am not sure how many people would take this gamble on a $100 fish. Maybe I should buy some goldfish and rattle the heck out of them and do some experimentations?
I still want ot get back to the fish themselves and see what parasites they naturaly come in with. I want to try to get the horse before the cart, so to speak.
Non the less, while I was looking for some info about my Ich-y friends, or how to make sure they get Ich free if they "do" have anything..... I came across this bit of info.
It still does not tell me anything about what oddities (parasites) they have from there native dwellings, but, maybe, this is what we need and would help to keep the ones that make it to the pet store stay alive?
Edited:
"Plasma catecholamine concentrations can remain high for days after fish have been stressed. Hydromineral or osmotic disturbance is an inherent part of stress in fish. Stress causes the loss of water and influx of ions in saltwater fish. Conversely, stress causes the influx of water and loss of ions in freshwater. The initial severity of a stressor such as handling and transfer determines the degree of osmotic disturbance rather than the duration of that stress.
Stress interferes with macrophage function and other immune system processes in general. When immune function is inhibited fish become more susceptible to disease. These disease problems can be delayed 1 to 3 weeks after a stressful event. This is could lead to the death of fish in what is known as the "Delayed Mortality Syndrome. Netting and removing fish from the water is highly stressful. Exposure to air for thirty seconds after exercise significantly increases mortality rates and blood lactate concentration in fish.
Pretreating fish with an immune system stimulant such as Beta 1,3D glucan will help them to proliferate the production of macrophage and enhance major host defenses of the immune system. Orally administrating Beta glucan will stimulate immune function, helping fish to overcome or avoid infection. Animal studies indicate that Beta glucan is safe to administer in a wide dosage range. A dosage of 4mg/lb. per day is recommended.
Netting and chasing fish during capture are frequent sources of injury and stress. Fish cannot easily see clear polyethylene bags or specimen containers that can be used instead of nets for capture, transfer and handling. Since the fish cannot see them, capture should be quicker and safer. The fish will also be less likely to become exhausted trying to avoid capture. Removing fish from their native environment (water) is highly stressful and often causes injury. Fish captured in a clear plastic bag or specimen container never have to be removed from water during transfer and handling."
Though it is said that
"Pretreating fish with an immune system stimulant such as Beta 1,3D glucan will help them to proliferate the production of macrophage ......."
works, this is a pre treatment that we have no control over. I would need to do more research on this to see if there are any post health benifits. Then again, another catch is that if it indeed does help post treatment, one would have to take a stressed sick fish home right away. I am not sure how many people would take this gamble on a $100 fish. Maybe I should buy some goldfish and rattle the heck out of them and do some experimentations?
I still want ot get back to the fish themselves and see what parasites they naturaly come in with. I want to try to get the horse before the cart, so to speak.