Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

Gyr

Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I’ve been reading this thread with interest and decided to try an experiment with my 55 gallon tank. This is a tank we’ve had for about 9 years, originally purchased for non-reef saltwater set up. It is acrylic and the middle of the back wall has a 3 chamber wet-dry trickle filter set up built in. I can’t recall the manufacturer name. One of the upgrades I made when I wanted to convert to reef tank (about 3 years ago) was to hang a little Prizm skimmer off the back and that started growing stiff brown algae (which I assume is turf algae) on the return flume about a month after I upgraded my lights to MH. That made me wonder if I could convert the space where the wet dry filter stuff used to be (bio-balls, etc) into a Turf Scrubber screen, similar to the set up for the sump that is described early in this thread. I used egg crate to serve as a support for the tank divider screen, angling it down from the spillover to one of the ledges that had been built in to support the lower tray for the wet-dry filter material. The light for my display tank shines down into this chamber and I added a little fan to blow down onto the screen (helps keep my water temp down, too). My return water goes through a SQWD, and by throttling down one side of the return tubing, there’s a little bit of a ‘wave action’ to the flow coming back into the wet-dry chamber over the turf scrubber. It was VERY simple to set up (took less than 30 minutes) and I am interested to see how well it works. The limitations I foresee are that the light cycle is not optimal (since I am just letting the display tank’s light do the job and they only run 10 hours/day), and the screen is just one-sided (approx 26 square inches). Fortunately, I have a lot of well-established live rock in the tank and only 2 fish, so nitrates/phosphates have not been a problem. I am hoping if this mini-scrubber works, I can remove the skimmer and add a few more fish…we’ll see.

The first photo is just a top down shot into the built in trickle filter. On the left is the ‘sump’ where water skims in from the top of the display tank (heater and intake for the Prizm skimmer sit in there). The middle chamber is where the wet-dry medium/filter was, now the Prizm return flows into it (see the brown (Turf?) algae) and the turf screen has been set up. The chamber on the right is just where the return pump sits with the SQWD blocking the view.
TrufScrubber1.jpg
[/IMG]
The second shot is just a close up of the newly installed turf scrubber screen. It was taken 3 days after set up, showing some brown algae growth.
TrufScrubber2.jpg
[/IMG]
I’ll keep updating on the progress of this experiment, in case others have a tank with a built in wet-dry filter system and want to do a simple conversion to a turf scrubber—I hope it works.
 

kiwiman456

Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I had some PVC and time so I made this
CIMG0777.jpg

It is big enough for 2 12X5 screens (55 gal tank). Going to be lit by 1 25W CFL in the center.
CIMG0776.jpg
I'm hoping that by plumbing down both sides I will get an even sheet of water.
Any one have any ideas for a good screen material?
Also I wanted to plumb this into a part of my overflow. Was thinking of just using a ball valve to regulate flow. has anyone had any success like that?
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Use two sheet of plastic canvas, per pipe. Here is a flow chart:

Screen Width-----Gallons Per Hour (GPH)

1" 35
2" 70
3" 105
4" 140
5" 175
6" 210
7" 245
8" 280
9" 315
10" 350
11" 385
12" 420
13" 455
14" 490
15" 525
16" 560
17" 595
18" 630
19" 665
20" 700


If you are doing an overflow feed, the overflow will determine how much flow you have to work with. You have to start from there, and size your screen accordingly. The maximum flow you'll get to the screen will be what's going through your overflow now. This is easy to figure out by counting how many seconds it takes your overflow to fill a one-gallon jug:

60 seconds = 60 gph
30 seconds = 120 gph
15 seconds = 240 gph
10 seconds = 360 gph
8 seconds = 450 gph
5 seconds = 720 gph


Take this gph number that you end up with, and divide by 35, to get the number of inches wide the screen should be. For example, if your overflow was 240 gph, then divide this by 35 to get 6.8 (or just say 7) inches. So your screen should be 7 inches wide.

When finished, this is how you want your flow to look:

UserZennzzoOnMFK-05.jpg
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Taken from "It's In The Water", by Ron Shimek
It's (In) The Water by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

[Aquarists have] the feeling that organisms somehow "use up," "change," or "consume" many of these [trace] chemicals, and in doing so, forever remove the chemicals from the reef aquarium system. This assumption is not completely false, some chemicals are "used up" and removed from the system, but most are not. Organisms are dynamic entities, and while some chemicals are temporarily sequestered away, such chemicals generally remain available in the system due to metabolic turnover. The only real exceptions to this as far as organisms are concerned are those chemicals, such as calcium, which get incorporated into an insoluble matrix.

Several trace elements are found in elevated concentrations in aquarium water [Table 2; Figure 2]. Some of these metals have extremely high concentrations relative to NSW; tin has already been mentioned as having concentrations over 200,000 times above normal, but Thallium, Titanium, Aluminum, Zinc, Cobalt, Antimony, and Copper all have concentrations of over 95 times normal.

Several of the trace metals varied in concert, particularly Cobalt, Tin, Zinc, Titanium, Copper and Vanadium, and lower but still positive correlations with Nickel and Aluminum are found. All of these metals are found at concentrations far above those of natural sea water. Some of these concentrations are almost unbelievably high. Tin has an average concentration in our systems of over 200,000 times greater than in natural sea water.

Increases in many of these same metals are correlated with the age of the tank. One explanation for that pattern would be that they may build up with the passage of time.

The older tanks also have more ammonia, nitrate/nitrite, phosphorus, iodine and copper than younger tanks.

Many of the trace element concentrations are lower than they are in freshly made up artificial sea water. Whether this indicates organism use, or abiotic chemical reactions, is unclear. Even though these levels are lower than in "fresh" artificial sea water, they are still very much higher than in natural sea water, and may still indicate a cause for concern.

[scrubbers remove metals; skimmers do not]
 

novanosis

Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I think I might have to do this. I have a spot for my fuge, but if I go this route would I really need a anything ells?? No chaeto?

Is there a good DIY step by step? Thanks

Also what pump would be good?
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

No chaeto needed.

Look at page 1, or at the FAQ below, for info.
 

LostOne

New Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Ok I have read this post and havn't seen a power filter converted into ATS. Please show me a pic of this or will I be the first? I seen the 5 gallon deal but, don't think it will be even near the same. I will be taking lots of pics. Any thoughts or ideas will help.
Equipment ot be usee:
Dr.s Foster & Smith $30 Power Filter
Work Light w/ CF 23 watt bulb
Plastic canavas
 

surfzone

Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

so how are these filters working for people? i'm fighting a battle with bryopsis and i'm getting desperate
 

Frankie

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Not my cup of tea Kevin but I have been keeping an eye on this thread and a few others like it on the web and am impressed with peoples results.
As for the Bryopsis, check out this page on GHA: Green Hair Algae can be conquered!
Marc's instructions work well also with the dreaded Bryopsis.
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Lost: I don't think anyone has converted a power filter into a scrubber yet. They have, however, converted the back of nano's into scrubbers; same idea, just bigger. First concern is how/where to put the screen to get the most area and the best flow. Second is where to put the light. If you can get a filter with a clear housing, you should be able to put the light on the outside of the filter, shining in. A 23W is probably way too big; maybe a 9w would be better. Also remember it will be one-sided, so you have to double the screen size to make up for it.

Surf: Since each person builds and operates there own scrubber, the quality varies widely. But given this, and looking at hair algae alone, about 90% of the scrubber users end up with all the HA gone after about 8 weeks (12 weeks max). The other 10% get greatly reduced HA, but still some remaining.

Most important for anybody is to have enough square inches, enough light, and also to clean it every 7 days no matter what you think is going on.
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Where to point bulb

Always try to point the bulb at the middle of the screen, not the top. You don't want too much algae growing at the top by the pipe, because it will grow into the slot and slow down the water. If you have no choice and you have to point the light at the slot, you can attach a thin plastic strip to the pipe, such that it blocks the light from hitting the slot.
 

LostOne

New Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

SM since I'm the first to do this i will do a write up on all steps and progress. I will also post these how ever you'd like (Its your thread). Also I have a 29 gallon tank with a high load. 4 Blue/Green chromis, 1 Blue Tang, 1 clown fish, 1 watchmen 4", and 1 purple stripe phesdo chromis, 30lbs live rock and one soft coral. I'm doing good just to keep the Nitrates at 20 ppm with bi weekly water changes of 3 gallons. Can you say, "I' tired of making salt water!":tumble:
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Yep time for a scrubber for you :)
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Results of not cleaning

If you do not clean your screen in FW once a week (or at least put the whole screen in FW, and clean half of it), here is what happens:

1. Pods start growing and multipling in the bottom layers of the algae. They do this by eating more of the algae. They then get washed off into the water and get consumed.

2. The bottom layers of algae (attached to the screen) start getting shaded by the new algae that grows on top of it.

3. The bottom layers of algae (attached to the screen) start getting less flow, because they are being covered up by the new algae that grows on top of it.

4. The algae starts growing up into the slot in the pipe, causing less water to flow out.

5. The algae gets thicker and longer and heavier, and thus "lets go" from the screen easier.


The results of 1, 2, 3, and 4 above, is that the bottom layers (which you can't see because they are underneath) start dying and disolve back into the water. The result of #5 is that large pieces of algae on the top layers (that normally would be useful) also go into the water and die due to lack of light.

However, you don't see any of this. What you do see is that the growth seems to be great, but it gets to a certain point and stops. It seems to have "stopped growing". Also the nutrients start rising. So the tendancy of some folks is to leave it longer without cleaning it, so to give the algae "more time to grow". Big mistake.

What is happening is that the underlying layers are dying off so fast, that the algae is being removed from the bottom as fast as it is growing on the top. Kind of like building a second floor on top of a house, but then removing the first floor: You end up with a one-level house again. But then you take all the materials that you got from removing the first floor, and you use them to build a new second floor. But then you tear apart the first floor again, etc.

So what is happening is that the bottom layers (and the top layers that let go) are putting Inorganic Nitrate and Inorganic Phosphate back into the water, which gets used to grow new algae on the top layers again. So the scrubber can no longer filter your tank because it is so busy re-growing new layers to replace the old layers that died.

The easy solution to all of this is to just do your weekly cleaning in FW. And the solution to #5 (which really is the smallest problem) is to put a light-shield along the slot.
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Successes Update:

Labperck on the AR site, translated from Spanish as best possible: "My system is 130 liters, DIY skimmer, 5 pounds of live rock, aragonite substrate 3-4 cm, 1 crossbow bursa fish, 2 percula clowns, and 2 feather dusters. Nitrate remained at 40 mg/l with changes in water of 20 percent a week. With changes in water 20 percent weekly, there was no noticeable improvements. Started with the vodka method, nitrates lowered to 30 mg/l, with no change of water for 2 months. The display was filled with filamentous algae and cyano. Then I found this scrubber and decided to try it. Installed lighting on both sides, and started turning off the skimmer at night. A week later, the nitrates are at zero, and the water is more crystalline. For now I'm very happy with this filter, thank you SantaMonica, JulioVideo, and all those who put their advice."

Emporador on the AR site, translated from Spanish as best possible: "Best of all is that today is the first time in my life watching the NO3 test Salifert no3 = 0 ... I can not really believe. Apart from all my efforts to maintain a good filter system, this really gives the expected results."

RiaanP on the MASA site: "Scrubber is now over 3 months old, Phosphates and Nitrates used to be sky high, but now I got no PO4 or NO3 problems."

MarkM3 on the RS site: "Just want to say thanks to Santa Monica. i begin my double-screen 2 month ago for 180 gal heavey load fish, and few soft, lps corals, and i always had 80-100 nitrates from havey stock fish. and now for the first time in 2 years my nitrates level are ((((10 ppm)))) which is amazing, corals are much happier, and pop there polyps more and more, hair algee on the display and rocks almost gone, still have a few red slim but less than before, much more cleanner display and caroline is growing too. its true, its active, its working the algee scrubberrrrrrrrr. go go go gooooo so thanks again."

SimonSKL on the MD site: "Just an update. I have started my ATS [2 months ago] but changed screen material about 5 weeks ago. Today, I am happy to say all cyano have disappeared from my tank and 95% of the hair algae are gone also. I have to add that I did change the water flow pattern by modifying two of my Maxijet 1200 with the Sure Flow adaptors. One pushes 2100gph and the other 1600gph, in a wavemaking mode. The screens that I now used are plastic canvas and doubled layers. I am still getting really dark brown algae growing on the screens and cleaning them about every 5-6 days. "

Glock339 on the UR site: "I [originally] set up my current nano to be Miracle Mud eco system. However I never actually got round to planting any algae in the MM, as I set up an algae scrubber and my params went perfect in a few weeks. so I' happy with things the way they are and probably shouldnt have bothered with the MM. Dunno if this helps but I'd defo recommend considering a scrubber to anyone wanting to ditch the skimmer and phos reactor."

MyFishEatYourFish on the MFK site: "update. nitrates undetectable with my test strips, so probably like 10 ppm, which is half of what i started with, so thats cool. i don't have a phosphate test but algae growth has slowed way way down already and my sand is actually white now, my fish are sooooooo active now its kinda nuts, even my flame angel and blue tang follow me waiting for food. i have nothing but the scrubber on there now and the tank is better than ever! all secondary filteration has been romoved for about a week and everything is continueing to improve. on my sheets brown started and soon turned dark brown with some green patches. i cleaned when the brown was too thick to see the sheet and noticed quite a bit of green underneath. coralline has noticanly increased its growthrate already and algae growth has almost stopped in the display, or my algae eaters eat it faster than it can grow. the rocks "leaked" [phosphate] for just a couple days and now are almost completely nuissance algae free and looking great. i am really impressed with the speed and effectiveness of this thing. i think using fabric really helped because how well the agae spores catch and hold on. in my opinion it is superior to any medium tried yet."

Dragon1188 on the SG site: "Just like to share that i just simply use a piece of plastic sheet (the white color one u can buy from Popular bookshop and quite rough) inclined at 30 degree to catch the return water to my sump. The piece of plastic is lighted by 2x8watt of Philips "tornado" energy saver bulb running 24x7 [should be 18 hours]. The piece of plastic is just 46cm long and 40cm wide. Total water flow over it is about 2000L/hr. My tank and sump volume is 400 L. After 1months, green (both hairy and fern like) and red algae (matt) growing like crazy [on the screen]. Can harvest 1 fistfull every 3 days. I had even removed my phosphate reactor and skimmer. Its been running 4months now and my phosphate is about 0.01ppm and nitrate is 0."

Da_Gopherboy on the 3R site: "I also battled nitrates for a while, my tank was FOLR for a while before I desided to add coral. Since I didn't intend to go in that direction originally nitrates were not my concern. So I was stuck trying to figure out how to drop the nitrates without contant water changes, or buying a denitrator (US Economy makes me poor). I made an ATS scrubber that was fed by my overflow right above my refugium. Nitrates made almost an 80% decrease within less than 2 months."

DangerDave on 3R: "I have been running the turf scrubber close to 4 months now. I haven't done a water change in about 2 months now. I just top the tank off. I do not have to clean the glass every couple hours or everyday. I clean the glass about once or twice a week (I have to clean/scrap the coraline off more than the algae). Coraline has taken off, corals are flourishing, mushrooms are splitting like crazy, everything is doing superb."
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Best Ready-To-Use Light

Aside from a custom-made T5H0 light panel (lots of lumens, really near the screen), the best overall light you can buy is something like this outdoor landscaping light:



SecurityLight.jpg




It's non-rusting, non-corrosive, weatherproof, thin, temperature resistant, compact flourescent, bolt-on, adjustable, and the bulbs are replaced easily:

RAB PLF39 39W CFL Landscape Flood 120V:
RAB PLF39 39W CFL Landscape Flood 120V - ProLighting.com

Housing and Lens: Corrosion and vandal resistant polycarbonate lens and housing.
Lamp: (3) 13W twin tube fluorescent GX23 (Included).
Lens Gasket: High temperature tubular silicone.
Finish: Architectural bronze.
Reflector: Anodized aluminum.
Voltage: 120 volts AC.
Mounting: Adjustable swivel mounting arm with 1/2" thread.
Size: 7.25" (18cm) wide, 9" (23cm) high, 3.5" (9cm) deep
Cost: $67 USD

This one is 39 watts (three bulbs) which is perfect for most screens, but they make smaller 26 and 13 watt (nano) size ones also. These types of light are surely available at larger home improvement stores, I just could not find them. Here are some other types too:

Lights of America 65W Fluorex Floodlight (White) (9265)
http://www.allproducts.com/manufacture100/classiclighting/product3.jpg
Positive Energy Conservation Products | Online Shopping
 

rafikgrais

New Member
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Hi Santa Monica
My tank is 340 Gallon
I did the scrubber 2 months ago and yet no turf is on the screen just full of algae brown and green and some red once I take the screen to scrub (with my Hand) it lost everything on the screen
Remain a very little green on the screen

I have 2 screens connected to each other each one is about 70 cm X 40 cm they are parallel to each other and the lamp is between them

The lamp is 75 w gives out 425 w

And using a 4000 L pump for the 2 screens
Nitrate is down from 100 ppm to 50 (Because I removed 3 canister filters)
but my phosphate still as is 9.0 never gets down
Where the problem is? Is it with the lamp or the water flow or what?
I have a heavy stocking of fish and Soft corals I have no SPS or LPS because of my tank test results can’t keep any of them
Thanks very much
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Good idea on the two screens. But I need pics. Other than that:

1. You should have cleaned it every 7 days, since day one.

2. Flow could be too low. If the width is 40 cm (16 inches), flow should be 16 x 35 = 560 gph (2128 lph) for just one screen, 4256 for both. If the width is 70 cm (28 inches), flow should be 28 x 35 = 980 gph (3724 lph) for just one screen, 7448 for both.

3. You should have rough up the screen so much it feels like a cactus. You can also use two layers of screen material (roughed up on all sides).

So post some pics. Take out the screen, double the material, rought them up like a cactus, check and/or up the flow, and clean it every 7 days no matter what.
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

New Screen Material

Well after months of figuring out what are the best attributes are for a scrubber screen, and also after getting reports from hundreds of people as to what screen material worked best for them, I think I've come up with a material that is perfect for the job. I'm offering this screen for free to anyone who wants to try it (just pay shipping). Here are some pics, and some advantages, to this material:


ScreenFlex.jpg



ScreenThickness.jpg



ScreenFinger.jpg



ScreenRigid.jpg



ScreenCloseup.jpg




It's Clear Plastic: This allows light from one side of the screen to shine through to the other side. For a (new) two-sided screen, this means both sides of the screen get light from both bulbs; for one-sided screens, it means the dark side will still get some light from the bulb on the other side.

It's Thick: 1/4 inch (6mm). This allows much more room for algae to grip to, so washings/cleanings will not strip all the algae (no matter how hard you scrub). For total algae removal, you can just use a hair brush to push all the algae completely out. If you already have a pipe that is cut for canvas (usually a 1/8" or 3mm slot), you'll need to widen it to 5/16" (8mm).

It Flows Through: Since the screen is not solid, it allows algae from both sides to attach to each other in the middle, thus giving the algae even greater holding-power during cleanings and high flow.

It's Semi-Rigid: This gives a small screen enough strength to hold up a pipe by itself, and gives large screens the ability to prevent waviness, and from flopping out of position.

It's Bendable: You can put a large screen in a small sink for cleaning; it also is possible to bend the screen into a circular-screen configuration (i.e., inside a bucket.)

It Holds Roughness (after you rough it up). Attack it with 30 grit sandpaper, wire brushes, power sanders, etc, and the roughness will stay. Give yourself about one hour to rough up both sides.

It's Sturdy: It resists hard cleanings, even if you use fingernails, credit cards, or razors.

It's Reef Safe: Is made of standard hard-plastic material.

It can be used as-is for vertical screens, or it can be glued to a solid plastic sheet for horizontal screens (the sheet keeps water from flowing through the screen.)

So if anyone wants to try it, the screens I'm starting out with are a little smaller than a square foot; they are about 11.5" X 11.5" (29cm X 29cm). If you need two of these sheets to fit your scrubber, let me know. I'll keep the packing and shipping cost the same for everyone, $10 USD, including international. Paypal is easiest, but whatever works. PM me.
 
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