Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everything

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Nice first try! The good news is that if you run it properly (cleaning, etc) it can only help, and it also did not take up any outside space. So it will certainly help the ammonia problems of your 200+gal predators, and will keep it very oxygenated. Four things you can do to dramatically improve it:

1. Use rough sandpaper/file on the screen so it is rough enough to catch your fingernails.
2. Lay a sheet of plastic canvas over it.
3. Add another light.
4. Remove that tube in the middle that is blocking the light.

Now for the other, unfortunate news: It is way way too small too properly handle the nitrate and phosphate demands of a 200+ gal predetor tank. The way is is setup right now, it is currently a weakly lit one-sided screen with low flow. Yes, it will remove some ammonia, and it will add oxygen, but it does not have the power to really help with nutrient issues. At 200 + 70 gal, heavily fed, plus whatever is in the sump, that small one-sided screen is going to fill up DAILY, once it gets going. 270 gal should have a 270 sq inch screen if double-sided, and 590 sq inch if single sided, and larger if heavily fed, and even larger if the light is weak. If it were me, a 270 predetor tank would have a 300 sq inch double-sided screen with a total of 300 watts of CFL light and strong flow. Yours is about 150 sq inches single-sided with 18 watts and low flow.

Predetor tanks have the strongest demand on a scrubber. So even the typical rule of 1 sq inch double-sided screen per gal, along with 1 watt CFL per sq inch screen, is low. I say all this, because your screen is going to fill up so fast that I doubt you will be able to keep up with it (probably daily). When you let it grow more than two days or so, the underlying layers are going to get shaded and die, and the nutirents are going to go back into the water, causing yellowing and clouding. And this of course defeats the purpose of the scrubber.

Is there any way you can reconsider using your sump? You could easiy (one day's work) and cheaply (less that $100) put a proper scrubber into your 70gal sump, completely hidden and quiet, which only needs weekly cleaning, and which would wipe out all nitrate, phosphate, and nuisance algae. Unfortunately, if I had to recommend one way or the other, I'd say don't use your current setup at all. It's just going to be a hassle, and it's not going to do any filtering.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Excerpt from "Waste Extraction, the Invertibrate Way" by Ron Shimek
Waste Extraction, the Invertebrate Way by Ronald L. Shimek, Ph.D. - Reefkeeping.com

"The animal poops it out, and from then on the scavengers/detritivores get rid of it." This is, of course, a very concise way of thinking about the elimination of uneaten food from the digestive tract. Unfortunately, it has nothing at all to do with what biologists consider to be waste. Not to put too fine a point on it, but fecal matter is nothing more than uneaten, partially digested and processed food.

"Actual waste materials are something else altogether. Strictly speaking, to a biologist, only a couple types of materials are truly waste materials. These are the byproducts of cellular respiration and protein metabolism, which in most animals, are carbon dioxide and ammonia, respectively.

[scrubbers remove ammonia and carbon dioxide; skimmers do not]

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Displays with lots of Hair Algae

It's happened several times now: Someone wants to add a scrubber to their system because they have a display with very thick hair algae on the rocks. They already measure zero nitrate and phosphate, and when they add their scrubber, the scrubber has a very slow start and does not seem to grow much.

Of course what is happening is that the hair algae in the display is ALREADY a scrubber, attached to the rocks! It has had plenty of time (months? years?) to establish itself, and most important, it has a gigantic area to attach itself to. So how do you beat it with your newly-built DIY scrubber? You do it with the power of light.

All algae operate on the of photosynthesis of light. The stronger the light, the more the algae will pull nitrate and phosphate out of the water, and it will pull it away from any other algae that has less light. This is important to understand: If two areas of a tank are identical, except one has stronger light than the other, the area with the stronger light will grow more algae, and, the area with less light will grow less (or none at all). This is why the top of your rocks grow more algae (it has more light) than the sides do (has less light).

So if you already have lots of hair algae in your display, you have to build your scrubber with even more powerful lighting than you normally would, so that the photosynthesis in your scrubber will overpower the photosynthesis of the algae in your display (then, after all the algae is gone in your display, you can reduce the wattage if you want). The bulb wattage to do this is about one CFL watt for every square inch (6.25 square cm) of screen area. Example:

Say your screen size is 10" X 10" = 100 square inches; if you did NOT already have a lot of algae in your display, a 23W CFL floodlight on each side of this size screen would be sufficient to keep all nuisance algae away. This would be 2 X 23W = 46 total CFL watts, for 100 square inches of screen. This is about a half watt per square inch. But to beat a large amount of established hair algae in the display, go for maximum power: 1 watt per square inch. This is about twice as much. So, using two of these same bulbs on each side (4 total bulbs) would give you about 92 total watts for 100 square inches, or, almost 1 watt per square inch. This would do it!

Note about wattage: We are talking here about real CFL watts, not "equivalent" watts. If the bulb says "23W = 120W", or "23W equivalent to 120W", we are talking about the 23. And if you are using T5HO, such as a 24 inch 24W bulb, you just use the wattage it says.

Another trick: Add a lawnmower blenny to the display. He will eat the "scrubber" in the display, so that the scrubber you build gets off to a faster start.

 

[pneumaticbetta]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

santa monica...hows it been man? tank is still running well with the scrubber i made.

i was wondering if you had any links to websites that sells the lights you recommend. better yet, if you know of any major stores that carry the light...name and type.

thanks

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Glad to hear it's doing well.

Most gardening stores will carry plant-grow bulbs. Grow-Lux bulbs are one of them. Here are some online options:

23 Watt R40 Compact Fluorescent Flood 2700K Warm White CFL
It just needs a clip-on socket. It's thin glass is lightweight, so the clip-on won't start slipping down. And it does not require a metal reflector, which is heavy and cumbersome. For a screen 12" X 12", you'd want one bulb per side. For a bigger screen, use two per side.

Next up in power (and cost, weight, and electricity) are the high power CFL's that are specific plant-grow lights, like these:
SH Hydroponics, Inc. > Dual Spectrum 65 High Output Fluorescent Light Kit

And for big screens like 24" X 24", and heavy-nutrient tanks, a mega-power CFL grow-light like this on each side of the screen will work:
Compact Fluorescent Plant Grow Lights & Fixtures by Hydrofarm at Home Harvest Garden Supply (2700K version)

No matter which one you get, replace the bulbs every three months, unless you want to "experiment" with how weak they can get before you have problems.

If you wish to experiment with LEDs, start out by trying one of these on both sides of your screen:
http://shop.sunshine-systems.com/product.sc?productId=10

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Yellow rubber algae

Many people, including me, get large parts of the screen that turn into a thick yellow growth that feels rubbery. This is caused by flow that was cut off, by algae growing up into the slot. As the slot gets cut off and the flow reduces, the algae that was growing on the screen in that flow now has no flow. And the yellow rubbery algae is what results. It does not appear to hurt anything, but it surely is not effective at filtering, since there is no water flowing over it for it to filter. One solution is to make cross-cuts in the slot. Another is to put a light-shield over the slot. Another is to point the bulbs further down the screen to they don't shine as much on the slot.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Excerpt from "Feeding The Reef Aquarium", by Ron Shimek
Feeding The Reef Aquarium, A New Paradigm - by Ronald L. Shimek - Reefkeeping.com

"It will become apparent that many of the problems we have with reef aquaria, such as excess nutrients, excessive growth of undesirable algae, and the inability to keep some animals alive and healthy is simply due to the feeding of inappropriate foods, compounded by feeding in the wrong manner.

"Bacteria, in fact, are an important food for most benthic or bottom-dwelling marine animals. This is because bacteria have higher nitrogen to carbon ratios in their cells than do either typical animals, plants or algae. As a consequence, many marine animals are specialized to eat bacteria, either directly out of the water column or indirectly as a frosting on sediment or detritus particles.

"One quite good study discussing zooplankton availability and concurrent feeding by planktivorous reef fishes has been published (Hamner, et al., 1988) [...] These researchers examined a reef [and found that] during a 12 hour period [in a section of reef only 3 feet wide, there were] 1,098,000 potential food items, about 70 percent of which are copepods and larvacean tunicates.

"A large amount of the zooplankton food that would have impinged upon the reef does make it to the reef, albeit modified into the form of fish feces. This [waste] is rapidly ingested by corals and other benthic animals.

"Also, what is apparent is that the fish eat ALL the plankton approaching the reef. NONE of it will reach the reef during the day when the fish are feeding.

"All of these fishes [listed in this article] eat large amounts of crustacean prey, particularly copepods.

"From this study, it is apparent that these fish are feeding continuously throughout the daylight hours. They are eating small items, but on the average they eat an item of food every three minutes, all day, during a twelve hour day. During that period they eat an average of two grams of food per day. [...] On the average, if you wish your fish to have the same mass of food that they are likely to eat in nature, presuming the data of Hamner et al., 1988, is applicable to other fishes, you should feed each fish in your aquarium that is the average size of a damsel fish, the equivalent of about 70% of a cube of this food per day. Large fishes would get proportionally more.

"During the day on a natural reef, it appears that virtually no moderately large zooplankter would reach the coral on the reef's face [because they are eaten by the fish]. Nonetheless, this area would be bathed in a diffuse rain of particulate organic material derived from fish feces [waste], dissolved material and microzooplankton.

"All aquarists may significantly control the amount of particulate food in their aquarium. This food will mimic either the zooplankton or the particulate organic material components of coral reef feeding dynamics. For the animals in a system to be healthy, those animals must be fed foods that more-or-less duplicate the qualities of their natural foods, and they must be fed in a more-or-less normal matter. Reef aquarium foods and feeding regimes tend to fail rather spectacularly on both accounts.

"The standard reef aquarium is probably fed once about once a day (Shimek, 2002), and the average daily feeding ration weighs 15.39 ± 15.90 grams, or roughly a half of an ounce, wet weight, of food. On a natural reef, this would be enough to provide roughly eight damsel fish with their normal daily allotment of food. Unfortunately, this amount of food all occurs effectively at once (or over a very short period) in an aquarium, whereas on a natural reef it would occur over a 12 hour period. Additionally, aquarium food is a relatively high-protein material. When most reef fish\es encounter planktonic patches of food, they eat voraciously, and material gets passed through their guts in a rapid manner resulting in incomplete digestion. This is precisely what happens to many fish in an aquarium when it is fed. If you watch some of your plankton feeding fishes, such as clown fish or damsels, you will see that shortly after the initiation of feeding they start defecating food at an increased rate. In effect, they are pumping food through their guts. The faster the passage of the food through the gut, the less the fish get from it. Perhaps in nature this doesn't matter, as the food is always coming at them. In the aquarium, this effect could be quite deleterious.

"In aquaria, fish that naturally feed consistently on small particulate material throughout the day are being forced to exist on bulk feedings once a day or with less frequency. Under such conditions, the animal is going through continuous cycles of near starvation followed by satiation followed by near starvation. This cyclic feeding simply must have a deleterious effect on the fish. Under such situations one could expect lower than normal growth rates, higher stress, increased susceptibility to disease and possibly problems with nitrogen metabolism.

"The amount of food impacting on the [natural] reef over the course of a day is substantial. Over a section of a natural reef about three feet on side, flows a continuous flood of water carrying with it about 2,000,000 food items with an aggregate weight of about two pounds in a 24 hour period. These tiny food items would be like a rain of diffuse nutrition on the reef and reef animals, particularly the fish.

"It is apparent that coral reef planktivorous fishes, and this is most of those kept in aquaria, would benefit from changes to the normal aquarium feeding regimen. They should be fed by some sort of continuous feeding apparatus. The food dispensed by such an apparatus should be particulate in nature, and very small. The largest sizes should probably be on the size of a brine shrimp or smaller. Such food need not be specifically formulated to be highly nutritious: Rather it should be of low to moderate nutritional value. If aquarium fish are able to eat more continuously and slowly, they will get much more nutrition out of each food item than they do now. Feeding a low quality food should result in significantly less nutrient accumulation than is now commonly seen in tanks.

"In effect, we need to turn our feeding regime on its head. Rather than feeding a small amount of highly nutritious food once a day, we should be feeding a large amount of low nutrient value food frequently. Such a feeding regime as this should reduce significantly the amount of pollution effects in reef aquaria. Additionally, there would not be a daily pulse of nutrients to temporarily overwhelm the biological filter. In turn, there would less potential growth of problem algae and the development of a more balanced and easily controlled assemblage of animals within the tank.

[Skimmers remove plankton, particulates, and copepods]

[Scrubbers add copepods, and don't remove plankton or particulates]

 

[markm3]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

oky , these pic after 25 days ...i think i have very hight levels of nitrates , i have FW clening weekly , and these dark stuff is easly slide from the scrubber during FW bath , i still have fast growing algee on the display and hight nitrates .. what should i do after ????

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

How many times have you cleaned?

 

[kyle1284]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

interesting...

 

[markm3]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

How many times have you cleaned?

5 times. , its working 18 hours

 

[kiwiman456]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

I am considering putting one of these in my 55 I am setting up. I will be moving everything from a current 29 with some serious ha. from

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to

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in 2 weeks.
If I install a scrubber in the new tank a brush the algae off the rock. Do you think I can keep the algae from coming back in the new tank.

was thinking 2 7x10 screens one placed on either side of a central light.

brian

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Yes it will keep HA from growing. 7 X 10 = 70 is a little small for a one-sided screen for a 55 gal, but since you'll have two of them, they will both be running most of the time, so you should be ok. Use at least a 23W CFL bulb, 2700K.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Pancaked screens

Since nobody is currently manufacturing a proper screen for a scrubber, we have to make the best of the materials we can get. Whatever material you use, it has been found that stacking two screens together works better than one. This is when you "pancake" two sheet of screen material together; they can be glued, sewn, or clamped together. This gives the algae much more to grab onto.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Empty Spots On Screen

Some people have small spots on the screen, about 1" (25mm) wide, that have no algae; these spots are scattered across the screen (not just near the bulb). These spots are where algae actually WAS growing, but the algae could not hold on, so it let go and went into the water. The reasons the algae could not hold on are:

1. The screen is too smooth (most common problem). No matter what material you use, you should use rough sandpaper to really mess up the surface. If the material is clear (like acrylic; not recommended), you should not be able to see through it at all. If the material is not clear, you should not be able to see a reflection, at all. If the material is a solid sheet, holes should be drilled every 1/4" (6mm)... instead of every inch like many people have tried. With solid sheets, instead of drilling holes, it's better to lay a layer of rug canvas, plasic canvas, shade cloth, or perforated drawer liner, across the surface. You would sand this also.

2. The screen is too thin. Screens should be about 1/4" (6mm) thick. This is thicker than most materials, so you should use two or three pancaked layers of material. This gives the "roots" of the algae more to grab onto.

3. The lights are not being turned off each night (18 hours ON, 6 hours OFF). So the algae grows, but then gets weak because it cannot rest. So it lets go.

4. The flow is too low (the opposite of what you would think). Higher flow delivers more nutrients to the algae (so it can grow strong), and also gives the algae more protection from the light (since the thickness of the water on the screen is more.)

5. The bulbs are actually TOO near, or TOO strong (this is very rare, however). It seems that bulbs that are 60 watt CFL (actual, not equivalent), AND which are 2 inches (5cm) from the screen or less, start to do this. If your flow is strong, then try decreasing the light by either (1) reducing the ON hours, (2) moving the light out to 4", or (3) getting smaller bulbs. But only try one technique at a time.

 

[kiwiman456]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

question about screen material.
Has anyone tried using something like filter floss as a screen. Seems like it would give plenty of places for algae to grab onto.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Would work good if you used two or three layers of it.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Update: Screen Sequence

Here is the typical sequence of algae on a new screen: First is a light brown coating, like a slime. After a week of that, you clean it lightly, and the next week you get a darker brown. After you clean that, you'll either get very dark brown/black stuff which stays very hard and thin, or you'll start getting some green hair. If it's the dark stuff, clean it right way (don't wait a week). After a few cleanings of this dark stuff, it too will start turning green. After a month or two, most of the growth will be green hair. If you start getting purple cyano on the screen, it means your light is too weak or too far away. If you start getting a hard yellowish plastic-like coating that covers the algae, it means your flow is too low in that area. If you start getting bald spots near your bulb, it means you are leaving your bulb on 24 hours, when you should be turning it off 6 hours a day. If you start getting round holes in your algae, it means pods are eating through it, because you are not using freshwater in your 7-day cleanings.

 

[SantaMonica]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Screen Recomendations

I've been doing research on the ultimate screen material. I want it to have all the best characteristics, so if you have some ideas as to what the material should do, or what it should have, let's hear it.

 

[markm3]

Re: Mega-Powerful Nitrate and Phosphate Remover Replaces Skimmer, Refugium, Everythin

Just want to say thanks to SANTA MONICA
i begin my double screen 2 month ago for 180 gal heavey load fish and few soft, lps corals,,,and i always had 80-100 nitrates from havey stock fish.
and now for the first time in 2 years my nitrates level are (((( 10 ppm))))
which is amazing , corals are much happier and pop there polyps mor and more
hair algee on the display and rocks almost gone , still have a few red slim but less than before,,,much more cleanner display and caroline is growing too.
its true , its active , its working the algee scrubberrrrrrrrr.go go go gooooo
so thanks again SANTAMONICA.
AND I MAY NEED ANOTHER HELP HERE
i got in my screen many many bublle on the screen now attached to the turff and i have also found a red -puple spots almost hard and bumpi like half a ball .what is that and they are very hard to get out the screen in the weekly cleanning
thanks