Low ph and calc with high alk

[prow]

Prow

I hate to tell you this but you are in error and disagreeing with the facts of chemistry, which Randy has written about them extensively. I'm quite familiar with Lynn and her tank

Often not the issue at all when a system is in an ionic imbalance. It has nothing to do with "channels" being closed unless you mean imbalance

what? nothing to do with it? i have no time and no typing skills to go into it much, right now. but so we are on the same page, i am refering to calicoblastic epithelium channels and how it acts in a low lower ph (coelenteron ph drops and the efflux of protons is slowed/inhibited). also with her Ca+ levels(very low) the calcium flux becomes one of the main limiting factors. thus, a increase in Ca+ will increase the efflux, which in turn increases the use of CO2 and/or bicarbonate, depending. also the high levels carbonic anhydrase, its like dosing a Ca+ channel blocker. maybe some Acetazolamide will help, hehe. sorry no time, the dynamics involved with calicoblastic epithelium transport are just too much for this post will come back to it.

maybe you went into this. i did not read the rest of the postings. lots of posting been going on in here.

 

[bluespotjawfish]

I think you are making Lynn dizzy!

 

[BobBursek]

Lynn,
since my PH is low too and following this thread please keep us updated on what you do and the results please.

 

[lcstorc]

what? nothing to do with it? i have no time and no typing skills to go into it much, right now. but so we are on the same page, i am refering to calicoblastic epithelium channels and how it acts in a low lower ph (coelenteron ph drops and the efflux of protons is slowed/inhibited). also with her Ca+ levels(very low) the calcium flux becomes one of the main limiting factors. thus, a increase in Ca+ will increase the efflux, which in turn increases the use of CO2 and/or bicarbonate, depending. also the high levels carbonic anhydrase, its like dosing a Ca+ channel blocker. maybe some Acetazolamide will help, hehe. sorry no time, the dynamics involved with calicoblastic epithelium transport are just too much for this post will come back to it.

maybe you went into this. i did not read the rest of the postings. lots of posting been going on in here.

Ouch. I'm not even going to try. I'll let Prow talk to Boomer on this one since I am way lost.
:dunce:

 

[sasquatch]

Lynn one other thing, warm water is very hard to oxygenate, your skimmer will do a great job of it with a fresh air supply, right now its just pumping the house air back in, you mentioned your fuge light is off, that also will contribute to lower ph levels if it was run on opposite timing

 

[lcstorc]

Lynn,
since my PH is low too and following this thread please keep us updated on what you do and the results please.

My situation is rather unusual since I have 3 or 4 things going on at once. The most frequent cause of a low ph is lack of oxygen or high co2. Try getting some more outside airflow in/around the tank and see if that helps. It usually does unless you have screwed up the balance totally by supplement without testing. That is where I really went wrong.

Regardless though I will post the progress and new values.
Frank is getting tired of messing with the tank every night so hopefully I can get to a lot if not all of the suggestions this weekend. He does have water mixing for a water change so I will try to get him to test it tonight so he can add anything that is needed and we can do a water change tomorrow night when I get home. Then start mixing for a second change on Sunday.
Water changes are almost always a good idea so I will be doing a lot of those and a lot of testing to get things back in line.

 

[Boomer]

Prow

i am refering to calicoblastic epithelium channels and how it acts in a low lower ph (coelenteron ph drops and the efflux of protons is slowed/inhibited). also with her Ca+ levels(very low) the calcium flux becomes one of the main limiting factors. thus, a increase in Ca+ will increase the efflux, which in turn increases the use of CO2 and/or bicarbonate, depending. also the high levels carbonic anhydrase, its like dosing a Ca+ channel blocker. maybe some Acetazolamide will help, hehe. sorry no time, the dynamics involved with calicoblastic epithelium transport are just too much for this post will come back to it.

That has NOTHING to do with her issue and Randy would tell you the same thing.......Sorry. It will have nil impact on her issue if any at all. You run that past Chris Jury, a Coral biologist/chemist, as a solution to her issue and he will laugh at you. Your statement is true but it does NOTHING for here issue. You are saying increase the Ca++ and the pH will go up like magic, solving most of her problem, some of her probelm, not so. If we were dealing with a very heavily stocked SPS tank then there is more to what you are saying.

Bob

I don't run tanks anymore so it is not an iusue

sasquatch

Good points. Also although O2 has no direct impact on her issue there is a indirect imapct on it as there is less O2 to oxidize things.

 

[lcstorc]

Well the fuge light has been off much longer than the problem has existed so while that may not be helping it isn't the root of the issue.
Interrestingly enough the tank has been running a degree or two more than it was since we removed the chiller. Not sure about the timing but it may at least be a contributing factor as well. It really only went up about 2 degrees though. Maybe everything combined to cause the initial low ph. I know I am the one who messed up the calc and alk when I used the buffer to try to raise the ph.
Hopefully between the water changes and additional air and whatever else is on the list it will raise the ph and I will just be left with the calc/alk problem. The alk isn't that bad so maybe adding the calc and water changes will settle that down.
I'll have to go back through the thread and see what all I am supposed to do this weekend but I know those are on the list.

 

[BobBursek]

Lynn.
warmer water holds less dissolved O2, so an assumption, maybe it will hold less CO2 and help with the low PH,

 

[Boomer]

Yes Bob the is true, warmer water holds less CO2 just like O2. However, warmer water also increases the rate of abiotic precip i.e, why CaCO3 is on pumps and heaters, they are warmer.

 

[prow]

That has NOTHING to do with her issue and Randy would tell you the same thing.......Sorry. It will have nil impact on her issue if any at all. You run that past Chris Jury, a Coral biologist/chemist, as a solution to her issue and he will laugh at you. Your statement is true but it does NOTHING for here issue. You are saying increase the Ca++ and the pH will go up like magic, solving most of her problem, some of her probelm, not so. If we were dealing with a very heavily stocked SPS tank then there is more to what you are saying.

Boomer,

dont know if you lost the topic, i know your replying to losts, but i NEVER said this had anything to do with her issue. where did you get that idea? i have already stated that its most likely CO2 and the buffer complicated things. i also agree with the water changes to correct her current levels. i posted about calicoblastic epithelium because as she raises her Ca+, using CaCl- some alk will get used. you said, No it will not. how did you come to the conclusion i said this had anything to do with her problem? also i NEVER said this was a cure or even a treament for her problem. this was in response to what will happen while as she raises Ca+, with her current Ca+/alk and ph levels. point is some alk will get used up and she should watch it as she raises Ca+, no magic to it. i dont know where you got the idea i said this would fix here issue, again this was about alk getting used up as she raises Ca+ and it should be monitored.

 

[prow]

Hopefully between the water changes and additional air and whatever else is on the list it will raise the ph and I will just be left with the calc/alk problem. The alk isn't that bad so maybe adding the calc and water changes will settle that down.

you mean your alk came down after you added Ca+, imagine that, lol. what i would do is get the Ca and alk balanced, using big water changes and if the ph is still low keep the alk up(high end of normal) and add a air stone with the line going outside, to add some fresh air, increase water flow and surface agitation, increase air flow in and around the tank. start topping off with lime water.

 

[Boomer]

Sorry Prow but that is how your statement comes across, i.e. corals suck up more calcium and if she raise it, it will lower the Alk and she is fixed. Maybe I read to much into it. You post is hard to follow and read.

As far as this

Hopefully between the water changes and additional air and whatever else is on the list it will raise the ph and I will just be left with the calc/alk problem. The alk isn't that bad so maybe adding the calc and water changes will settle that down.

How do you come up with this it is not there

you mean your alk came down after you added Ca+, imagine that, lol.

There is no mention of it in the post that the Alk came down when she added calcium. I highly doubt adding more Ca++ will lower the Alk unless the pH gets up there first. This will explain it better. Look for the discussion on Omega Values. Her Omega value is around 2. Adding Calcium does not lower the Alk just because you add it. The temp, pH, Mg++, Ca++ and Alk have to be at right parameters for it to take place. You may want to look at to some of Zeovit or Blue Coral Method's users that run the Ca++ up ~ 500- 600 ppm with normal to mod Alk and no precip. Chris's work is also on this subject. Look at Randy's Omega of 6.

Calcium and Alkalinity Balance Issues
Calcium and Alkalinity by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

 

[prow]

Sorry Prow but that is how your statement comes across, i.e.

no worries, i can see how that can happen, it usually me. some sentences became fragmented as i might have left out a word or two here and there. i do that sometimes. i really wish i could type better, or if i could only do a couple dictations here. getting into the pathophysiology via typing, would take me forever even if i was a good typist. but no i type something like 5 words minute then have to erase 3 of them.

corals suck up more calcium and if she raise it, it will lower the Alk and she is fixed. Maybe I read to much into it.

yeah you read into that just a little, lol. i kinda new you took a left when i took a right the last couple of posts. ok maybe this may help you peek into my head and make my past post easier to follow.

i could be wrong but basically i think we both see the same issue and whats needed to fix it. if you look back on the 4th post in this thread, my first one, i gave hints about the cause of the ph being CO2. but after that i focussed on Ca+. i do believe you coming in with a chemisrty perspective, whereas i am coming from a pathophysiology perspective, we just have different approaches here. i see her ph as being with in normal ranges, possibly just below at night. not a level most would target, thats for sure, but still with in normal "acceptable" limits. her alk is the same but on the other end. so i see the lowered ph (elevated CO2) as being compensated for (offset by) alk being on the high side. yes, i know, it is at its limits (as far as reef levels go), i see that. what is not with in normal limits is the Ca+. IMO, the Ca+ needs to be addressed first. her ph and alk together are not at harmful levels. her Ca+ level on the other hand is not looking so good. if she raises her Ca+ to normal ranges and keeps her alk up along the way aswell as not letting the ph go/stay below 7.6, yeah the tank will be fine. many using Ca+reactors have levels similar, only with higher Ca+. something like 4+ish alk, 7.8ish ph and 420ish Ca+ level, no prob. i have ran reef tanks with levels like those for long periods of time and had great results. its a little different i know, i am not saying she will/should not have to deal with CO2 issues. just saying for now not to focus on ph as much but more on bringing the Ca+ up to normal ranges, while of course watching alk and ph, not letting either of them fall much if at all.

the calicoblastic epithelium channels i.e..,Ca+ channels, was just to show alk does get used. coraline alone can eatup a lot of Ca+ and alk. ture, though, it would occur to a greater extent in a sps tank.

How do you come up with this it is not there

well, maybe i did read into that one a little bit.

I highly doubt adding more Ca++ will lower the Alk unless the pH gets up there first.

from a chemistry view point, maybe. i can see where you get that. but her 7.7 ph is not the limiting factor here, its with in acceptable ranges, low side of acceptable yeah. the 325ppm Ca+ though is the limiting factor. if her Ca+ level was above 350ppm i would be more inclined to agree, above 360ppm yeah i agree, because calcification is not increased with additions above 360ppm, but lynn's its not above 350ppm. her Ca+ is/was 325ppm and calcification ceases at that level. increasing the Ca+ here will increase the calcium flux and thus calcification will increase, or maybe better said it will restart. at her ph as Ca+ levels return to normal ranges or levels high enough for calcification to restart the use of alk comes in. its not just chemistry here. well it is but not again, i am not saying adding Ca+ is a cure and that will be that in lynns' tank. the CO2 has to be delt with also. can be/should be treated concurrently with her Ca+ issue. i am not thinking over board as in her alk will come crashing down in proportion with adding Ca+ or anything close to that. but she needs to watch it and keep it up until the Ca+ is with in normal ranges. then she can focus more on the ph issue. JMO

This will explain it better. Look for the discussion on Omega Values. Her Omega value is around 2. Adding Calcium does not lower the Alk just because you add it. The temp, pH, Mg++, Ca++ and Alk have to be at right parameters for it to take place. You may want to look at to some of Zeovit or Blue Coral Method's users that run the Ca++ up ~ 500- 600 ppm with normal to mod Alk and no precip. Chris's work is also on this subject. Look at Randy's Omega of 6.

sounds interesting i will check it out. i suspect the raising of Ca+ and "Adding Calcium does not lower the Alk just because you add it". is based on adding Ca+ that is/was already with in normal limits. just a guess, i am sure i will enjoy learning about it. only really glanced at zeovits setups-not to up on them, yet

 

[BobBursek]

Respect both of you guys but get a motel room toghether!LOL!
Lynn, it has been balmy up here in WI, in the high 50's opend the house up, and added 2tbls of BAKED baking soda,1 last night, the other 730 this morning, to raise AK and BAKED Baking soda raises Alk and PH, un bakes raises ALk and lowers PH, per RHF, today 930 this morning PH 8.1 enstead of 7.8, 430PM 8.3, I did not measure Akl since I am do ing my usual 30gal/20% water change biweekly tomorrow, will do all the params Sunday, give you a report, Ithink fresh are and the BBS raised the PH, can not remember where your Alk was but if high do not do what I did it will just raise it more but if low , bake BS spread out thin in the oven at 350F for about 3 hours, per RHF, raises PH and Alk, regular BS rauses Alk. lowers PH, if you do not trust me go to the Chem Calculator on this.

 

[Boomer]

from a chemistry view point, maybe. i can see where you get that. but her 7.7 ph is not the limiting factor here

It is quite limitiimg with that low Ca++ and that low pH. One should not go below 7.8. All one has to do is look at Omega values for a guide Higher pH increase calcification as does higher Alk and yes also Ca++, to include Mg++

the 325ppm Ca+ though is the limiting factor.


Nope corals can still grow at that Ca++ if the Alk and pH is in the higher end or higher.

because calcification is not increased with additions above 360ppm, but lynn's its not above 350ppm.

Oh, it increases quite a bit and is the reason behind the Zeovit and Blue Coral methods, where they run very high Ca++. There are also a number of tech papers on Ca++ increases and how corals growth increases well above NSW Ca++. It is the area Chris is doing his studies in. Corals are not saturated in relation to Ca++ even at 450 ppm and sat is the limit where they will not grow any faster.

You are going by old outdated material. I use to think that also long ago.


Here is just one of them

Effect of increased calcium concentration in sea water on calcification and photosynthesis in the scleractinian coral Galaxea fascicularis -- Marshall and Clode 205 (14): 2107 -- Journal of Experimental Biology

 

[hma]

I need to fix some things and I did not get them all


Knowing the above info, the next step for me, would be to drive off the CO2 and since the calcium and pH are low, a good addition to the tank would be Calcium Chloride. The Calcium Chloride will help to raise the pH as well as lower the carbonates attributing to the high alkalinity[

The chloride ion has not effect on pH or Alk. The calcium ion if anything will drop the pH even further, for as the Ca++ from the Calcium Chloride may attach itself to a CO3-- and form Aragonite or Calcite. This drops the Alk and thus, may also drive down the pH.

CO3-- Ca ++ + CO3-- > CaCO3 = solid Calcite/Aragonite, called abiotic precipitation

Marine Buffer or seachems reef buffer is ok to use

NOT Marine Buffer it will really mess up a tank that is being dosed with sups. It is for FOT, even SeaChem will tell you that. This buffer will more or less off-set the normal seawater chemistry. It can cause lots for problems of not being able to dose things and get them where you want them. As the rules are different. Normally the only cure is 2 -50% or greater water changes a day apart. It is great stuff for a FOT and I always recommend it for them. The stuff also skews your alk test kit waaaaay off as there is crap loads of Borate in it. Meaning it reads way to high. Your real "Carboante Alk may only be 3.5 meq / and not 4.5 meq/ l .


as you raise your Ca+ your alk will get used up.

No it won't that is 95 % myth and often misunderstood issue. You can get the calcium very high without it affecting the Alk at all. This "get used up" deals with if animals, like corals or when abiotic precip is taking place and that rate of drop is 20 ppm / 1 meq / l ALK. If you have animals that use little Ca++ it will continue to climb and the Alk will still fall as it is used up in other reactions such as neutralizing acids. At time one can add large amounts of Alk to get the Ca++ down, it is another method we do not really recommend. On the same note one can add crap loads of Calcium Chloride to drive the Alk down and we don't recommend this either. This is all part of abiotic precip which is controlled by the Ca++, Mg++, Ph and Alk. For example with a low pH of around 8.00 a low Alk ~ 2.00 meq/ l one can raise the Ca++ over 800 ppm with CaCl2 with no precip. Precip actually starts, in theory, around a pH of 8.2, Alk 2.5 when the Ca++ is ~800. As the Alk rises above that the amount of Ca++ becomes less with increasing Alk or pH, i.e.., precip @ ~pH 8.2, Ca++ 410 and Alk 5 meq/l

Lynn

You DO NOT add buffers for pH, they are for ALK. If one has a low Alk and low pH then one can use baked baking soda to adjust it. Kalk should be used to raise the pH only when it is low or to fix a CO2 issue OR you need to see why, find out why, you have a CO2 issue and fix it first.

agree 100%, the only way to fix the problem (sorry, i am late to the party :bouncer: )

BTW Lynn, from where get the Skimmers his air? For some days, at least as long as to the PH is normal again, it should be outside air.


To raise the calcium value without influencing the PH I would use the following prescription:

½ gal. RO/DI water
165 gr. CaCl2 (Calciumcloride dyhidrat) ( = PH neutral)
(46 gr. MgCl2 ( Magnesiumchlorid Hexahydrat) leave out with high magnesium value )

I would dose the total quantity (1/2gal) for a period of approx. 8 to 10 days in equal parts. This is very careful for the corals and inverts. I have calculated the amounts for a 125gal. tank, outgoing from the values in Lynn’s first post (*1).

 

[prow]

from a chemistry view point, maybe. i can see where you get that. but her 7.7 ph is not the limiting factor here

It is quite limitiimg with that low Ca++ and that low pH. One should not go below 7.8. All one has to do is look at Omega values for a guide Higher pH increase calcification as does higher Alk and yes also Ca++, to include Mg++

just raise the Ca+, no more ph limiting. thus its the Ca+ that is limiting. many calcareous algaes love elevated CO2 its only being limited by the Ca+ level.


"reefing chemistry" can not explain what i am talking about, not yet. you will see similar notes to the one below on most every study. this one below is from Marshall and Clode 205, the link you just gave.

Artificial sea water with zero or low calcium concentrations
has been used by several investigators for experiments on
aspects of coral physiology (Chalker, 1976; Krishnaveni et al.,
1989; Ip and Krishnaveni, 1991; Al-Moghrabi et al., 1996;
Tambutte et al., 1996; Gattuso et al., 2000). The possibility of
undesirable effects resulting from exposure to such media do
not appear to have been considered in detail. Exposure to
artificial sea water with zero or low concentrations of calcium
had a profound effect on G. fascicularis polyps (A. T. Marshall
and P. L. Clode, manuscript submitted for publication). The
polyps were anaesthetised and extruded enormous numbers of
mucocytes. This inevitably must affect the transport of Ca2+
across the epithelia and compromise any experiments in which
Ca2+ transport is a factor. As a consequence of the effects of
low-calcium sea water, we have chosen, in the present
investigation, to examine the relationship between calcification
and photosynthesis by using high-calcium sea water..

dont take this wrong but you keep coming back to the effects of adding Ca+ to a tank already at good levels and the effects on calcification. what about the effects of the lowered Ca+ on her corals, it is causing harm, the ph and alk levels are not. sorry but raising Ca+ levels while current levels are very low is not the same as raising levels when Ca+ levels are within normal ranges. ok forget it, we are going off into something that really will not help here. we agree on the issues, but i believe the Ca+ is doing more harm and should be addressed first. you believe the ph is doing more harm and should be fixed before addressing the Ca+. no reactions with X amount of this present or X amount of that will show what i am talking about, from the quote above; "This inevitably must affect the transport of Ca2+ across the epithelia and compromise any experiments in which Ca2+ transport is a factor." its not possible to get past that and understand whats going on using just chemistry.

Nope corals can still grow at that Ca++ if the Alk and pH is in the higher end or higher.

correct, i do know of some softies that can, but this is far from the norm and her clams, sps zoas and sps are hurting with that Ca+ level.

because calcification is not increased with additions above 360ppm, but lynn's its not above 350ppm.

Oh, it increases quite a bit and is the reason behind the Zeovit and Blue Coral methods, where they run very high Ca++. There are also a number of tech papers on Ca++ increases and how corals growth increases well above NSW Ca++. It is the area Chris is doing his studies in. Corals are not saturated in relation to Ca++ even at 450 ppm and sat is the limit where they will not grow any faster. You are going by old outdated material. I use to think that also long ago.

good to know. however this study still in the works and others steer clear of it as they can not explain what is going on using chemical equations.
they caution interpitation of this within the link for good reasons. the increases of calcification on coral growth could be related to something else. even if not, for the average tank, just adding Ca+ to a reef tank with a 400ppm Ca+ level will increase calcification. if just by adding Ca+ and pushing it to levels of 500+, everyone would be able to just add Ca+ and increase calcification along with it. i dont think its the Ca+ that is increasing calcification but the effects of other mechanisms on calcification. perhaps to initiate those mechanisms that result in a increased calcification rate, higher Ca+ levels are needed. i dout its the Ca+ alone.

ok lets get off this, i believe alk will get used up while she make adjustments to bring things back to normal, you think alk will stay the same. ok so be it.


for you Lynn, i stick with the advice i gave. back to back 50% water changes, BAM two days done, water parameters close to norm. now you only would have to deal with CO2. increase air flow, water flow, lower the temp some if possible, start topping off with lime water. perhaps go with a 24/7 lighting schedule in the refugium with your macros. IMO, after water changes, dosing kalk, increasing air/water flow may very well be all you need to do to correct these issues and maintian acceptable levels there after.

 

[BobBursek]

Lynn,
now that the guys got done "shooting it out" I did my every 2 week :snrkl: 30gal-20% water change this morning, this afternoon, PH 8.0, trates 0 Sera, Alk 9 Elos, Ca 420 API, Mg 1350 Elos, SG 1.025, tweeked the PH and Alk with baked baking soda, and the Ca with Kent Turbo Ca. I am happy, let us know how you are doing on yours.

 

[lcstorc]

Oh my. Lots of activity I had not seen.
I just did a water change and have not tested yet because I am waiting for things to settle a bit.
Opened the windows right by the tank and put a fan there blowing from the window towards the tank and another aimed down into the stand where the skimmer etc are. We had actually just opened up the doors of the stand a couple of weeks ago when they cut fish shapes into the doors of the stand so lots of air is going in there now. So far no change to the ph but it has only been a couple of hours. Slept in late cause I was so happy to be home.

Thanks for the hints Bob. I have read Randy's articles and they are extremely helpful but unfortunately I have high alk as part of this mess. At least I did last time I tested. Complete new tests in a bit. I'll be shure to post new levels as soon as I have them.
Thanks everybody for all of your help. I really do appreciate it even if I only understand a small amount of it.