Low ph and calc with high alk

[BobBursek]

Lynn,
according to Randy H-F the Alk if high will come down on it's own, just do not know why Mg is so high, and Ca so low? Forgot the salt you are using but on Reef Central they just sent in all major salt to a test lab for anylization, and yes there differeces in levels but none that I read had that wide of highs and lows, As Randy sez it "could be the test kit" and again not going back 7 pages of ego to find out what you are testing with!!! LOL!! Luv them both and trust there info, but!!

 

[prow]

Wow!

I've been over that problem for a long time now!

Will you guys catch up already!

lol,

hey, its was hard getting those processes i was trying to get out, out. esp the way i was going about it. only a few will get what post 94 encompasses.

 

[prow]

Lynn,
according to Randy H-F the Alk if high will come down on it's own, just do not know why Mg is so high, and Ca so low? Forgot the salt you are using but on Reef Central they just sent in all major salt to a test lab for anylization, and yes there differeces in levels but none that I read had that wide of highs and lows, As Randy sez it "could be the test kit" and again not going back 7 pages of ego to find out what you are testing with!!! LOL!! Luv them both and trust there info, but!!

lol, no worries about us. took a few :hammerhea some beat_dead_horse and a couple a bunch of some but we are now reading out of the same :read:.......................:smoking:

sorry everyone about all that. it seems harsher than it is. if we spoke in person it would have took less than 2 min to get on the same page. we will stay with you from now on.

 

[BobBursek]

Like I said LUV you both and respect your advice, but when it gets deep in Chem I am lost, so I will let you guys do your thing, I only trust a few here and on RC, in Chem you to, Randy, and Bertoni, and in RODI it is AJ, the DR, and Jim at TFG's, all the rest are just giving opinions and what has "worked" for them so far, and the key word is "so far"!!!!!

 

[Boomer]

Yup Lynn, there is something wrong with that test kit. I would not get to carried away with adding C++. And the technically reason why ? If the Ca++ was really that low, there would be zero Alk. Why ? Each drop of 20 ppm Ca++ will take 1 meq/ l with it. Calcium can not leave solution by magic But is it impossible to do ? No. but the Alk would have to be around ~ 12 meq / l in the salt mix for starts. Unless you guys did a No-No. You did not add water to the salt did you. You MUST add salt to the water. But still, with that said, the Alk would also have to be really low. But not maybe that, in all cases, as you could get massive precip of Calcium Sulfate, where the Alk *may be somewhat normal but I doubt it 99 % of the time. And so that is celar, that is adding water to the sale mix.

Lynn we have had guys with the Alk up to 5-8 meq/ l and pH in the high 8's and we always tell them, leave it alone it will come on its own. And to just be careful if they are that high and do not play with Ca++ levels, if they are within acceptable range.

 

[lcstorc]

Well we double tested the clac with 2 runs of the Salifet test and two runs on the API test in both the tank water and the NSW. Not sure how ll could be an error so who knows. I bought a bucket of TMPro reef just because I never had problems with it. I will also get new calc, mag, and alk test. Frank has already ordered a new ph/etmp probe.
I still think the biggest mystery is how my tank looks so good with the chemistry all messed up.

 

[prow]

Well we double tested the clac with 2 runs of the Salifet test and two runs on the API test in both the tank water and the NSW. Not sure how ll could be an error so who knows.

i would be thinking that too. but its jsut too wierd that after one water change the tank and a newly mixed batch of salt have the same readings, esp if a day or two had gone by after the water change. perhaps something contaminated the kits where they are stored or something.

I bought a bucket of TMPro reef just because I never had problems with it.

just curious, when you get TMPro test it with the same kits just to see

I still think the biggest mystery is how my tank looks so good with the chemistry all messed up.

lynn, glad things are looking good in the tank. i am sticking with bad tests on the last tests. for your corals, they can adapt to lots of changes. esp if the changes occurred slowly over time. depending on the coral, softies are very "tolerant". sudden changes if corrected right away usually have minor effects as it self limiting. many corals are exposed to air and sun regularly, if your interested, what i was not doing such a good job at pointing out, was how corals and things react and "compensate" to changes. you just want to make sure things are corrected (if need be) before compensating mech become exhausted. i posted this for boomer but if your interested i could try to find a couple good links and/or go into it a some. warning!! warning!! this stuff is very involved, many mechanisms and processes are in play.

vacuolar ion sequestering and osmolyte accumulation and how they diminish some inhibitory effects in metabolic processes and keep cytoplasmic pH stable. Cl- HCO3- exchange, Cl–/OH– exchange, K+-H+ exchange with Na+-K+-Cl- cotransports, you know the whole selective ion flux and ion partitioning thing. Ca+ plays a role too, but lets not go there. with my examples of late, it could get messy. the different percpective thing i referred to, was a pointing out water chemistry reponses opposed to corals/algae/"creatures" reponses. corals/bac/algae have extensive vacuoles accociated with calicoblastic epithelium. i just took the wrong road in pointing this out. never intended it be a fix or cause.

look into these if your still interested let me know. you can get a idea just looking through some links, but to be honest unless you have a good understanding on physiology and chemistry getting in to pathophysiology can be taxing.

 

[lcstorc]

Yep that one went way over my heat as does most of the chemistry stuff. That's why I love Randy's articles he usually breaks it down to something I can understand.
Meanwhile I am searching for new test kits tomorrow and Frank has already ordered a new ph probe. If I can find it I will also get some Turbo Calcium since so many recommended it.

 

[prow]

no worries, you dont need to know about the details. besides, its not chemistry, its pathophysiology. chemistry is only part of it.

i too, really like randy's articles. he does a great job of explaining many chemical mechanisms and interactions, not to mention some tasty dosing recipes

 

[Boomer]

Prow yestrrday while searching for Nickle uptake in coral and any biological usage I ran into this.........

A compartmental approach to the mechanism of calcification in hermatypic corals
http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/199/5/1029.pdf

 

[prow]

there you go, thats exactly what i was getting at. now, why i could not find something like that, no idea. i did look though, but only came up with a few abstracts and those usually only focussed on one aspect or process. good find. not a heck of a lot of work, that i know of, has been done in these areas. now i have a key word to search "compartmental approach" (coral microcolony, coupled with a physiological approach) good stuff great timing with this BTW, as i am currently researching this stuff as it applies to clams, aswell as the biofiltration aspects of clams. manily crocea and maxima's.

now you got me a little curious about this nickle thing. what drove you to look into nickle uptake?

 

[Boomer]

The product manager of Tropic Marin, myself and Randy had a debate on adding sup's to reef tanks. Nickel was on the list of sup's to add. He made the comment that it is a trace element of the ureases and ureases are said to be involved in coral calcification and calcification processes of other animals like mollusks etc. My question was why is there a need to sup if it is already 100 x in most reef tanks. IMHO he had all kinds of meaningless reasons. His claim, which is suppose to be coming out in an article in 6 months, is that all these sup's he has added have a positive response in corals in his tests. We are saying we don't buy it but will wait for the article. I think it is just another marketing scheme.

 

[prow]

this actually ties into what i have been pointing out. nickel alone reduces rates on calcification and photosynthesis.
however, ureases are nickel dependent enzymes that catalyze the hydrolysis of urea to form ammonia and carbon dioxide. calcification occurrs during ureolytic microbial carbonate precipitation. this is nothing more than microbiologically induced CaCO3, a percipitate. i dont see how this would help with coral growth.

O and in all cases i know of high doses of nickel can cause great harm and if glycine is present no calcification will occur. but it could be different in mairne life, dout it differs much. i too go with marketing scheme until proven otherwise.

 

[prow]

this is not for the marine environment but is this abstract what he was trying to say gives a positive response in corals?

The role of microbial urease in calcite precipitation was studied utilizing a recombinant Escherichia coli HB101 containing a plasmid, pBU11, that encodes Bacillus pasteurii urease. The calcite precipitation by E. coli HB101 (pBU11) was significant although its precipitation level was not as high as that by B. pasteurii. Addition of low concentrations (5–100 μM) of nickel, the cofactor of urease, to the medium further enhanced calcite precipitation by E. coli (pBU11). Calcite precipitation induced by both B. pasteurii and E. coli (pBU11) was inhibited in the presence of a urease inhibitor, acetohydroxamic acid (AHA). These observations on the recombinant urease have confirmed that urease activity is essential for microbiologically-induced calcite precipitation. Partially purified B. pasteurii urease was immobilized in polyurethane (PU) foam to compare the efficacy of calcite precipitation between the free and immobilized enzymes. The immobilized urease showed higher Km and lower Vmax values, which were reflected by a slower overall calcite precipitation. However, scanning electron micrographs (SEM) identified that the calcite precipitation occurred throughout the matrices of polyurethane. Furthermore, PU-immobilized urease retained higher enzymatic activities at high temperatures and in the presence of a high concentration of pronase, indicating that immobilization protects the enzyme activity from environmental changes.