Elegance Coral Theory questions

[lcstorc]

Fast forward to last night. This is what I came home to.

I am not too sure how well you can see in the pics but half of the coral is pretty obviously dead. In less than 24 hrs. Under shade. On the bottom of the tank.

There is a good third of healthy looking coral on the end that I would love to save but quite frankly don't know how. It is already in the shade with low flow. What am I missing?
If you think you can save it send me your info. I hate to see any animal die particularly when my ignorance is the cause.

Any and all opinions are welcome and will be read.
Thanks

 

[charlesr1958]

Okay, I guess being subtle is not working so will have to make a more direct comment.

First off, What are your qualifications and training that enables you to do biological research? What facilities and equipment are you using in your research?
If you are nothing more than a hobbyists with no formal training in research, which is fairly obvious this is the case, then you can only accomplish two things, Figuring out the basic care of an LPS, of which that info has been out for a very long time, no new news there. Secondly, your care information and linking such information to a possible disease is misleading others into thinking they can get around a disease of which you have no clue.
You should not even use the words "theory" or "research". The best you can claim is "WAG" (wild arse guess), of which anyone can do since to have a theory, you need to have evidence that will lead others down the same path within reason. A guess does not do that and can only lead others down the wrong path.
You disagree with Eric B. okay, thats cool, what evidence do you have that would lead yourself or others into doubting his work? Other than you simply don't want to believe it. The man has access to real research labs and has had other scientists who specialize in microbes take a look at his findings, although at this time, those scientists have not had the time to do such research with the coral tissue simply because to do so, would be on their own time. But, just their comments of the tissue samples looking suspicious is of far greater value to me than anything you have put forth, or could put forth.
The only thing you can claim in doing is that one should provide the basic needs of a coral that has very large polyps. Please stop tossing around suggestive words as if you are actualy doing any real research. And like I've said before, yeah, its nice that you figured out how to care for a coral, but any number of peaple could have saved you a lot of time as that info is VERY common knowledge, that knowledge, or leading up to that knowledge is not a "research project", you are simply trial and error with nothing but "maybe its this" and "no wait, maybe its this", something anyone of us can do ALL day long.
Yes, I am sounding offensive, but you just do not "get it", and I know of no other way to try and make it hit home with you. As far as I am concerned, you are only putting your own corals at risk, as well as others by insinuating that you are doing actual valid research. Please stop.

Chuck

 

[charlesr1958]

I fogot to mention that I would encourage you to take your "theorys" and "research" and present them to Eric Borneman for his take on the subject. Might he is better able to explain things to you than I can, and who knows, such a discussion with an actual scientist might be a learning experience.

Corals and Coral Reefs - by Eric Borneman

Chuck

 

[sasquatch]

Lynn, how much shading do you have? is there indirect/angled mh hitting it? what was the lighting at the lfs

 

[lcstorc]

Lighting at the lfs was 250w 10k MH but they are raised up pretty high. ?no obstruction of any kind.
My shade is a piece of solid white plastic with a dish towel over it directly between the mh and the elegance. I do still have the actinics that run the lenghth of the tank but that is just 4 96w pc actinics. My shade structure pretty much eliminiated any direct light from that MH blub due to the placement etc. The corals around it have definitely noticed the lower light and I had to move my clams as they we obviously not getting enough. There is nothing but rock anywhere within reach so nothing can be stinging it as far as I can tell. No anemones in the tank at all so that can't be it either.
The only other thing I can think of is my Chevron tang. He has been accused but not charged with the crime of nipping lps. I do find it hard to believe he could nip that badly in that short of time. The coral looked "normal" when I went to work and looked much like the current pics when I came home the same day. That is a lot of picking in a short time particularly for such an overfed fish.

 

[sasquatch]

cant see it would hurt to fence it off, got any gutter gaurd or something to protect it, the yellow tang at my lfs shredded one in an afternoon

 

[lcstorc]

I certainly have egg crate anyway. It is surrounded bu rock to mimize the flow so I could easily get a piece for the top. Worth a try at the very least.
Thanks

 

[Dentoid]

Lynn, I know nothing about this coral, but maybe it's just retracted. Perhaps it will reinflate.

 

[charlesr1958]

Lynn,

In order to make conditions for the coral as stress free as possible, which is all ANYONE can or has done for corals looking such as yours, place the coral on your sandbed out in the open to where it can get some moderate lighting, also, you want the water flow to be moderate as well, to where its tentacles are being moved somewhat gently but not "standing still". If it will accept food, let it eat what it can and as much as it will take. If your coral is effected by the "problem", there is nothing else you can do for it at this time and only hope that the coral itself can overcome whatever is ailing it. Some times they do make a come back, some times they don't.
The above pretty much sums up all the so called theorys being thrown around and this entire thread could have been kept to a simple "this is what you can do, and just hope for the best", which is really the only thing that the person named "elegance coral" has done in the long run. He got lucky with a few specimens, and just as unlucky with others yet he seems to think he has stumbled upon something worthy of being called research. I apologize to all for my obvious frustration, but hopefully you do see the dangers in making wild guesses and the foolhardiness of claiming research being done in such a manner. For those with elegance corals, provide them their needs as you would any other species and hope for the best, for those that do not have elegant corals, please do not let wild arse guesses convince you that it is worth taking a chance to purchase one. Its not.

Chuck

 

[Pro_builder]

Charlesr1958,
If someone wants to give insight on a situation that they have had with a coral and a cure that worked for them then that is there prerogative. I don't believe that you are a researcher either, so how would you know if the path that he took helped cure the coral or not. Just because it isn't written in some book that what he did will cure the problem doesn't mean that it won't.
Besides when one of us is having problems with a certain coral or fish we like to be able to look back and say well someone did this and it helped, what does the next person have to loose by trying that way too.
Moral of my post Please have some stricter manors and don't obliviously tear someone apart on this site. Remember we are all friends looking for help and Any info and Ideas that we can get to make our tank mates happier.
Scientists don't know everything either.
Thank you and have a great day,

 

[charlesr1958]

Taking proper care of a coral is one thing, but when an unknown pathogen is ripping through a specific species, and is only happening with captive specimens, throwing wild guesses out as to why this is happening makes for interesting discussions, but thats about it. To sit here and put forth wild guesses as to why it is happening and then to suggest a possible "cure" while using words such as "theory" and "research" is going well over the top. And it seems to have convinced one person to give keeping this species a try, which leads such over the top claims to be just flat out irresponsible.
True, I am not a scientist, but I have the common sense to know what the meaning of the words experiment, theory and research actualy means as used by scientists who have a much greater chance of figuring it out than some plumber with a reef tank. Observations within our aquariums make for good discussion, no problem there. But to take an observation, while not doing actual experiments and true research and run with it as doing research is..... comical.
For me, and I stress ME, observing how a species does with various tank conditions is fine, if it leads to better care and makes for good discussion. But again, thats ALL it can do. and...once again, you can discuss elegant corals all day long as per their requirements, but please, don't insult my intellegence by throwing wild guesses at me with claims of research being done on an unknown pathogen or cause.

"so how would you know if the path that he took helped cure the coral or not"

Exactly my point! Providing an effected elegant coral with proper living condtions simply gives the coral a shot at nothing more than a CHANCE. Thats it.

Chuck

 

[lcstorc]

Well I will be building an eggcrage cage kind of thing to be sure the Chevron is not picking at it. I will also try to provide more shade though I have no idea how I may accomplish this. I will definitely try to target feed the remeining heads and it has been suggested that I do another iodine dip so I will probably try that as well. I have no idea if any of this will work but it is easy enough to try and I really have fallen in love with this coral.
While the thread did contribute to me thinking I could be successful, I should have exersised eniough common sense to not buy the coral. I guess my only consolation here is that it had a better chance with me than with most. The lfs said high lights, high flow, but I had read enough by then to know that is not really what any of the experts suggest so at least it has a better chance here.
Maybe there will be a miracle and when I come home from work it will be all puffed out and happy looking. Stranger things have happened in my tank. I am not counting on it but corals can be very strange animals which us part of what makes them so fascinating to me.
Anyway, thank you all for your ideas and suggestions. Since I have to work all day I really won't have a chance to do anything till this evening so if anyone has a suggedtion please let me know by post or pm.
I will post my results/experiences and hopefully that may help someone down the line. They will be posted as my observations and experiences since I am nowhere near a scientist (Well I am married to a rocket scientist. Does that count? )
Thanks again to everyone who has tried to help my poor coral.

 

[blue_eyes53813]

Charlesr1958,
If someone wants to give insight on a situation that they have had with a coral and a cure that worked for them then that is there prerogative. I don't believe that you are a researcher either, so how would you know if the path that he took helped cure the coral or not. Just because it isn't written in some book that what he did will cure the problem doesn't mean that it won't.
Besides when one of us is having problems with a certain coral or fish we like to be able to look back and say well someone did this and it helped, what does the next person have to loose by trying that way too.
Moral of my post Please have some stricter manors and don't obliviously tear someone apart on this site. Remember we are all friends looking for help and Any info and Ideas that we can get to make our tank mates happier.
Scientists don't know everything either.
Thank you and have a great day,

I agree, This is a freindly site. We are all here to learn, help and encourage care for all livestock. Someone stating their findings in care for our beloved livestock is a great thing. Elegance coral has kept these corals and some may agree or disagree with the findings or believe but PLEASE no bashing. We all have livestock and run into troubles at times.. Everybody does things different, Doesnt make them wrong..

 

[Eric Borneman]

First, there are two publications on the collection locales of C. jardinei

1. Bruckner, AW and Borneman EH 2006. Developing a sustainable harvest regime for Indonesia’s stony coral fishery with application to other coral exporting countries. Proc 10ICRS, Okinawa.

2. Bruckner, AW. 2002. Proceedings of the International Workshop on the Trade in Stony Corals; Development of Sustainable Management Guidelines. NOAA Technical Memorandum NMFS-OPR-23, Silver Spring, MD 152pp.

The second is the complete work with surveys in Catalaphyllia collection areas. This was also supplemented by a TRAFFIC report with Carolyn Raymakers a year later. These findings also contrast with the natural location within its range in areas where collection does not occur. Second, I have never suggested a protozoan was involved and I have done the histology on 79 diseased aquarium corals, all of which are available at the International registry for coral pathology if anyone wants to confirm my findings.

There are two consistent intracellular microbes in diseased corals, resulting in granulations of nematocysts, invasion of zooxanthellae and disruption of cellular architecture contingent on the degree of infection. Ciliates are found externally and invading highly degraded tissue, but this is likely a secondary opportunist as the tissue degenerates. Numerous samples have fungal hyphae penetrating the calicoblastic epithelium that could act as a portal of entry. The isolation of the acidophilic bacterial aggregates and the small rod shaped microbes affecting zooxanthellae will require sequencing and I need collaboration and money in order to do that, and that will not likely happen as funding for aquarium related disease is not falling off trees. Our surveys of wild populations and the incidence and prevalence data gained from field surveys, exporters, wholesalers and retailers as well as infection studies suggests a highly contagious species-speciifc condition that is probably rare in the wild but in closed systems has exacerbated effects. One of the 796 microscopy images I have taken to date showing this condition in the tissues is attached.

 

[kathywithbirds]

While the thread did contribute to me thinking I could be successful, I should have exersised eniough common sense to not buy the coral. I guess my only consolation here is that it had a better chance with me than with most.
...

I will post my results/experiences and hopefully that may help someone down the line. They will be posted as my observations and experiences since I am nowhere near a scientist (Well I am married to a rocket scientist. Does that count? )
Thanks again to everyone who has tried to help my poor coral.

Hey Lynn, don't get down. The coral was already taken from the wild and in am LFS, which I don't believe is the best possible environment, no matter how knowledgable or responsible the store owner, no offense to those owners. It has been uprooted from its home and environment, it is going to be transported again when someone purchases it. It probably has a better chance with you, a responsible hobbyist, than someone who just says hey that's pretty I'll buy it.

And yes, the fact that you're recording your experiences and trials with it will help contribute to the body of knowledge about this coral, even if only for hobbyists who read RS.

So don't think your efforts are in vain.

 

[elegance coral]

Mr. Borenman, I am glad to see you in one of these threads. I have been hoping to talk with you on this subject. Unfortunately, I must return to work at the moment. I hope you are still around this evening so I can have the chance to ask you a few questions.

 

[lcstorc]

Wow, I don't know what to say except thank you to Mr Borneman. I hope you continue to add your vast knowledge to our forum even if only on this topic.
Since I am scienteficlally challenged and only understood some of your post do you have any advice to a dedicated hobbiest who has a very sick elegance. So far suggestions have included another iodine or lugols dip. Yet another decrease in lighting, and forming a barrier so I can be certain my Chevron tank is not all or part of the problem. It is in a 6ft 125g tank with 3 150w 10k MH lights and a shade put between the light above it and the coral. I also have a 20g tank with T5 lighting, a pair of clowns and a bta that it could be moved to as well as a 24g Aquapod with stock pc lights that is connected to the 125. (I think I am addicted since I am cycling a 90g as well but it isn't ready for anything but rock and water now) The others are fully cycled etc so I could move it to any of the tanks as well as try any other suggestions you may have.
Thanks for posting. We really appreciate your input. I will keep reading the post until I at least think I understand all of the science.
Again, thank you for stopping in and adding the info you have gathered. It is very much appreciated by this reefing addict at least.

 

[Woodstock]

Thanks for all of your research Mr. Borneman!

 

[kathywithbirds]

LOL, I start a post gabbing on about this and attract an expert... it pays to ask dumb questions : )

So, Mr. Borneman, not to sound like a doofus, but yeah, can you dumb that down for us?

 

[boozeman]

Thank you Mr. Borneman for taking a moment from your busy schedule to join us here on RS.
If it were I who had such a grand opportunity to speak with you over a topic such as elegance coral ...I would definetely have called in sick to work.