Elegance Coral Theory questions

[kathywithbirds]

HO LEE COW, read some of Dentoid's link to the "elegance coral theory".

Geez, very energetic discussion.

Beginner questions (no, Doc, I'm not getting one!!), think of this as coming from a student: Apparently at some point it was discovered that a protozoan was thought to be attacking and killing elegances? And has since been debated? Is this out in the wide world or is it an aquarists' problem?

There was a lot of debate on how they react to light and water quality. Has anyone gotten into ocean pollution as an overall issue with these guys over time or am I too off point there?

I like to read this kind of stuff, scientists and experts debating issues like why elegances aren't doing so well in recent years as compared to "former" years (am I correct in this?) and I like to think of the (possibly fictional) guy who got stranded on a desert island with only eggs to eat for many years. When he was rescued, his cholesterol was tested and it was normal. An example of how the body adapts. Can this apply to elegances? All these tests and theories and individuals react based on their individual makeups, thereby "screwing up" data?

 

[zoomer]

I recently read an article suggesting that the reason of the elegance coral problem was due to the depth at which they where collected. The article suggested that elegance corals collected in Jakarta years ago where taken from shallow lagoons and have much thicker tissue to protect from the sun. After years of overcollecting these 'shallow' water elegances become scare, and collecters started taking elegance from much deeper water that had thinner tissue and where more prone to damage. The author of the article even claimed he saw an ornamental shrimp walk across one of these corals and punctured several small holes in it.
While I don't know if any of this is true, I do know that the very first LPS coral i put in my tank almost 14 years ago was an elegance coral from Jakarta. The coral is still healthy and thriving today and has added several inches to it's skeleton.
I have also heard that this problem is restricted to those elegance collected in Indonesia, and elegance taken from other parts of the world have been problem free. I would think though, that if this 'plague' was due to a parasite or some sort of pathogean that it would have already decimated wild populations as well as affecting related LPS such as the fox coral. Until we know for sure, I think it's best to keep at least the Jakarta Elegance corals in the wild. As beautiful as they are, it makes little sense to me to put them in our tanks when their death rate is so high, especially when there are lots of other beautiful and hardy LPS corals.

 

[prow]

this is a can of worms, IMO. there are lots of reasons that could be the start of the cause. deeper water collection could be one. just the stress of the collection could weaken them enough. its also thought that after, for whatever reason, they are stressed and weak diatoms and others grow at the base and push the corals tissue off the skeleton allowing opertunistic nasties to enter.

the pathogen thing comes from Eric Borneman, he found a unknown pathogen gram(-) rod, i think. maybe it was a protozoan of some kind. forgot -here is a article about his project. The Elegance Coral Project by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com

this one here is the thread on RC that he updates from time to time. you can follow on the coming and goings of it. the project has been going on a long time. Reef Central Online Community - The Elegance Coral Project

alrighty then, thats all i got to say about that. i will let this thread go where it may. CYA:scram:

 

[lcstorc]

I have littlt to add here except the note that I just bought a very large very beautiful elegance. Despite the controversy it was one of those corals that jumped into my car. It is a gorgeous animal and the skin seems fairly thick. Certainly a cleaner shrimp walking on it would not do damage to the specimen I purchased. It has only been a couple of days but I have it in a somewhat sheltered area on the substrate and so far it looks fabulous. I was even able to target feed it my mush las night and it held onto and ate every piece. I tried to be sure each mouth got a piece but there are so many I couldn't be sure.
I do not know where mine was collected from and I don't think the lfs does either but I will ask. I will also be sure to post updates on my chronicle about how it is doing. Right now with lights off etc it measures 6 in by 8 in. It gets much larger when the lights are on, The skeleton is of course much smaller than that but I did not want to get it that angry.

 

[kathywithbirds]

I had seen your posts on picking up yours, and saw some in pics from other reefers, then started reading the link to the "theory" thread. OK, I really didn't read it ALL it's pretty long, but I will, I'm interested. It's a common problem in several venues -- people are discussing something (chat, forums) and some of the readers don't know a few base facts that is very common knowledge among those discussing.

ANYWAY, interesting to read, hope yours does well, Lynn!

BTW, is there anything said by those researching about a difference in pressure as an issue? I know I've been diving a couple times (took a class) and my ears are REAL sensitive to pressure differences. Air travel is also a problem for me and my brother and sister. If some specimens are living long term at a deeper pressure than that which divers collected before, would that be a factor in their health?

I prefer snorkeling. (Besides the fact that at some point I realized diving could be dangerous, although that's another story... : )

 

[AQTCJAK]

Here is what I have discovered on this subject. It has already been mention that they used to be collected in the shallows which is correct. The water was cleaner & the light was more concentrated.

Today the are collected deeper under the reef very little light & more stagnant water. This is largely in part as to why we can not house them. I was actually thinking in a sump of a predator tank as an experiment low light for little time. They are great filter feeders.

There is talk about a Australian elegance coral that possibly will reach the industry it is collected from the shallows the catch will be in the price.

 

[mps9506]

BTW, is there anything said by those researching about a difference in pressure as an issue? I know I've been diving a couple times (took a class) and my ears are REAL sensitive to pressure differences. Air travel is also a problem for me and my brother and sister. If some specimens are living long term at a deeper pressure than that which divers collected before, would that be a factor in their health?

Yes pressure can be an issue. Typically whenever corals and fish are collected by divers in deep water they are bagged and floated up to the top slowly. This gives the diver more time to collect as well as take his time coming up as well.
Shallow water collector typically don't do this.

 

[mps9506]

this is a can of worms, IMO. there are lots of reasons that could be the start of the cause. deeper water collection could be one. just the stress of the collection could weaken them enough. its also thought that after, for whatever reason, they are stressed and weak diatoms and others grow at the base and push the corals tissue off the skeleton allowing opertunistic nasties to enter.

the pathogen thing comes from Eric Borneman, he found a unknown pathogen gram(-) rod, i think. maybe it was a protozoan of some kind. forgot -here is a article about his project. The Elegance Coral Project by Eric Borneman - Reefkeeping.com

this one here is the thread on RC that he updates from time to time. you can follow on the coming and goings of it. the project has been going on a long time. Reef Central Online Community - The Elegance Coral Project

alrighty then, thats all i got to say about that. i will let this thread go where it may. CYA:scram:

LOL. My thoughts exactly.
I'm just gonna sit back let more research be done, and go from there.

 

[boozeman]

Ditto

 

[Dentoid]

Booze what happened to your friend Elegance Coral? He hasn't been around.

 

[cheeks69]

I recently read an article suggesting that the reason of the elegance coral problem was due to the depth at which they where collected. The article suggested that elegance corals collected in Jakarta years ago where taken from shallow lagoons and have much thicker tissue to protect from the sun. After years of overcollecting these 'shallow' water elegances become scare, and collecters started taking elegance from much deeper water that had thinner tissue and where more prone to damage. The author of the article even claimed he saw an ornamental shrimp walk across one of these corals and punctured several small holes in it.

Zoomer this wasn't an article nor did it provide any scientific evidence. At our partner forum myself and several other members had an on-line conversation with Eric Borneman and when I asked him Eric mentioned that the problem that Elegance corals are having is only happening in captivity not in the wild. I suspect that it's a pathogen that is infecting these corals and it's most likely happening in wholesalers holding tanks but as Mike mentioned more research is necessary. The shallow/deeper water is another issue but as with other LPS this is something that can easily be corrected by acclimating the coral properly to the light intensity.

 

[mps9506]

There is a big difference between a peer reviewed article and a post on a website
I'm in the camp that will wait a year or two or three for those doing the proper testing on the hypothesis that there is a protozoan affecting this corals. I suspect a combination of factors leading to the problem with elegance corals.
I'd just rather wait than take part in the demand for corals that won't live in my tank.

 

[lcstorc]

I so hope mine will live, Short term it looks awesome but I have been around enough to know that means nothing, Are there any estimates of how long the pathogen takes to damage/kill the coral? I am already going with the low light and low flow but it would be great to know when I am "out of the woods" Kind of like most people cannot keep gonipoira for a year or more.
Just curious really. I will do evenything I can to keep this coral healthy. Not only do I respect all life forms but this thing is absolutely gorgeous.

 

[mps9506]

I so hope mine will live, Short term it looks awesome but I have been around enough to know that means nothing, Are there any estimates of how long the pathogen takes to damage/kill the coral? I am already going with the low light and low flow but it would be great to know when I am "out of the woods" Kind of like most people cannot keep gonipoira for a year or more.
Just curious really. I will do evenything I can to keep this coral healthy. Not only do I respect all life forms but this thing is absolutely gorgeous.

It seems many people have kept them for as long as a year to a year and a half before they start to show signs of serious degradation, other times the inflated disc and shrunken tentacles start showing within weeks.
Hard to tell if it is the same thing causing the problem. Keep a good log of how it does for us

 

[kathywithbirds]

Eric mentioned that the problem that Elegance corals are having is only happening in captivity not in the wild.

ahh... haven't gotten that far in reading yet.

So in theory a pathogen that only attacks the Elegance perhaps? Wouldn't that be awfully specific? Although I guess it's common enough for parasites and such to be host-specific. Again, haven't read all the stuff, but interesting on that thickened skin/mucus issue as well. I have to look up the gram negative thing as well, I actually dealt with something similar with some of my birds but it's been a long time.


Lynn, good luck with yours, more pics are always appreciated!!!

 

[zoomer]

Zoomer this wasn't an article nor did it provide any scientific evidence. At our partner forum myself and several other members had an on-line conversation with Eric Borneman and when I asked him Eric mentioned that the problem that Elegance corals are having is only happening in captivity not in the wild. I suspect that it's a pathogen that is infecting these corals and it's most likely happening in wholesalers holding tanks but as Mike mentioned more research is necessary. The shallow/deeper water is another issue but as with other LPS this is something that can easily be corrected by acclimating the coral properly to the light intensity.

Oh sorry, please forgive my ignorance

 

[elegance coral]

Booze what happened to your friend Elegance Coral? He hasn't been around.

Here I am!

 

[elegance coral]

I recently read an article suggesting that the reason of the elegance coral problem was due to the depth at which they where collected. The article suggested that elegance corals collected in Jakarta years ago where taken from shallow lagoons and have much thicker tissue to protect from the sun. After years of overcollecting these 'shallow' water elegances become scare, and collecters started taking elegance from much deeper water that had thinner tissue and where more prone to damage. The author of the article even claimed he saw an ornamental shrimp walk across one of these corals and punctured several small holes in it.
While I don't know if any of this is true, I do know that the very first LPS coral i put in my tank almost 14 years ago was an elegance coral from Jakarta. The coral is still healthy and thriving today and has added several inches to it's skeleton.
I have also heard that this problem is restricted to those elegance collected in Indonesia, and elegance taken from other parts of the world have been problem free. I would think though, that if this 'plague' was due to a parasite or some sort of pathogean that it would have already decimated wild populations as well as affecting related LPS such as the fox coral. Until we know for sure, I think it's best to keep at least the Jakarta Elegance corals in the wild. As beautiful as they are, it makes little sense to me to put them in our tanks when their death rate is so high, especially when there are lots of other beautiful and hardy LPS corals.

Hello, I am the author of that article. In the beginning of that article I explained that I was posting it prematurely due to pressure from hobbyists that wanted to know what my thoughts were up to that time. I didn't want to post it then and I wish I wouldn't have posted it now. I have made mistakes along the way. I don't feel to bad about making false assumptions through the course of my research. That is what research is all about. You find a problem and test theories until you solve the problem. The title of that article was "Elegance Coral Theory". At that point I viewed it as a theory and wanted the reader to understand that. Even back then I was on the right track. I just didn't fully understand what these corals were going through. My biggest mistake was with the skin thickness issue. I now understand that the symptoms I was seeing were due to the tissue damage caused by over exposure to light. The same tissue damage we see in corals that have bleached. This makes the tissue much weaker and subject to being damaged much easier. I have done a great deal more research sense I wrote that paper. I can safely say that I have solved the problem now. I am no longer viewing my findings as a theory. There will be many people that don't believe what I'm saying. That's okay. I just hope these people don't buy Elegance corals. I am not only able to keep these corals alive, but I am able to bring them back from what would appear to be certain death. Not just once or twice, but time after time.

 

[kathywithbirds]

I can safely say that I have solved the problem now. I am no longer viewing my findings as a theory.

Hi. This thread was my fault, I'm a beginner in the hobby and needed some "holes" filled in for myself as to what you and others were writing about.

Will you or have you published your more recent findings? I'd like to read it.

 

[elegance coral]

Zoomer this wasn't an article nor did it provide any scientific evidence. At our partner forum myself and several other members had an on-line conversation with Eric Borneman and when I asked him Eric mentioned that the problem that Elegance corals are having is only happening in captivity not in the wild. I suspect that it's a pathogen that is infecting these corals and it's most likely happening in wholesalers holding tanks but as Mike mentioned more research is necessary. The shallow/deeper water is another issue but as with other LPS this is something that can easily be corrected by acclimating the coral properly to the light intensity.

What constitutes an article? We read the newspaper where the bulk of the stories originate from testimonials from people with no scientific evidence, and yet we refer to these stories as articles. I read many, many articles (or at least I think they're articles) and I don't recall reading many that provide scientific evidence. Articles describe scientific evidence. The scientific evidence is most often in a lab or research facility. The written word is not scientific evidence. It is very hard for any article to provide scientific evidence. Articles are simply a way for researchers to describe the scientific evidence they have witnessed for themselves.

You are quick to believe what Borenman says about this issue despite the fact that he offers absolutely no evidence to back up his position. Sprung was the first to come up with the Protozoan theory. Borenman simply jumped on the bandwagon and concentrated what little work he did on this subject in that area. The theories that he and others came up with from the evidence that is there simply does not make any common sense. The protozoan theory is flawed. It is absolutely 100% wrong. The only facts, or evidence he has supports what I have been saying. I have yet to find one person that can come up with one logical reason why I am wrong. I do post evidence. I post pic's of Elegance corals that I receive in very bad shape and document its recovery with pics over a period of time. If I were wrong I would not be able to save these corals. If protozoans were eating them alive I would not be able to save these corals.

I understand if you are upset with me because I said your Elegance was not well expanded and healthy, but I do wish you would keep an open mind and look at the evidence that is there. If you do look at the evidence that is available the only logical explanation is light.