Elegance Coral Theory questions

[cheeks69]

What constitutes an article? We read the newspaper where the bulk of the stories originate from testimonials from people with no scientific evidence, and yet we refer to these stories as articles. I read many, many articles (or at least I think they're articles) and I don't recall reading many that provide scientific evidence. Articles describe scientific evidence. The scientific evidence is most often in a lab or research facility. The written word is not scientific evidence. It is very hard for any article to provide scientific evidence. Articles are simply a way for researchers to describe the scientific evidence they have witnessed for themselves.

Well I just don't look as a few comments on a reef forum thread as an article, sorry if this offends you.

You are quick to believe what Borenman says about this issue despite the fact that he offers absolutely no evidence to back up his position. Sprung was the first to come up with the Protozoan theory. Borenman simply jumped on the bandwagon and concentrated what little work he did on this subject in that area. The theories that he and others came up with from the evidence that is there simply does not make any common sense. The protozoan theory is flawed. It is absolutely 100% wrong. The only facts, or evidence he has supports what I have been saying. I have yet to find one person that can come up with one logical reason why I am wrong. I do post evidence. I post pic's of Elegance corals that I receive in very bad shape and document its recovery with pics over a period of time. If I were wrong I would not be able to save these corals. If protozoans were eating them alive I would not be able to save these corals.

It's a theory and the evidence suggests it's a pathogen but it's just a theory and until it's proven with scientific evidence it'll continue to be a theory. What scientific evidence have you presented ? What tests have you done ? Show some before/after photos.

I understand if you are upset with me because I said your Elegance was not well expanded and healthy, but I do wish you would keep an open mind and look at the evidence that is there. If you do look at the evidence that is available the only logical explanation is light.

Well it lasted 18 months so if it sick it certainly showed some stamina...
I don't take people too seriously so don't concern yourself, I'll be ok :snshne:

 

[elegance coral]

Hi. This thread was my fault, I'm a beginner in the hobby and needed some "holes" filled in for myself as to what you and others were writing about.

Will you or have you published your more recent findings? I'd like to read it.

I am busy putting together information and photos for a web site that will cover everything I have learned. I hope.

The problem started several years back. In the late 80's and early 90's there were natives in small boats with no scuba gear that collected most of the animals for the aquarium trade. Over time it became much harder to find Elegance corals in these shallow waters of the collection sights. They were forced to hire divers trained in scuba to dive to greater depths in order to find these corals. Even Borenman himself published an article stating that these corals can be found at depths of 114 ft, (a very dark environment) and were very hard to find in the shallows. This is when our problems appeared. The algae that live within corals and anemones is divided into different clads. There are different clads for different environments and different species of host. There are very few corals that can survive in both the very shallow and very deep water like Elegance corals can. I believe that what enables them to survive in such drastically different environments is the use of two different clads of algae. One that is well suited to the bright shallow waters and one suited to deep dark waters. We are still trying to fully understand the relationship between these algae and their host. For some reason some of these deep water Elegance corals do not bleach like a typical coral will when exposed to bright light. These corals swell up and withdraw their tentacles under this exposure. They do not do this at any other time. The tissue is being damaged during this time just as we see in corals that have bleached. It will take time to repair this tissue even if the coral is removed from the light that caused the damage. It has been well documented that elevated temps play a major role in coral bleaching. With these deep water Elegance corals temperature becomes very important. The amount of light they can withstand at 75 degrees is much greater that what they can withstand at 80 degrees. If an Elegance coral is protected from light that will cause it to swell and withdraw it's tentacles it will survive. If you have an Elegance coral that swells up and withdraws its tentacles the lights should be turned off immediately, and kept off until the next morning, giving the coral time to reduce the amount of 02 in its system before the lights come back on. In this time the lights and/or temperature should be adjusted so that this does not occur again. I hope this filled in some holes for you and if you have any questions I will do my best to answer them for you.

 

[elegance coral]

What scientific evidence have you presented ? What tests have you done ? Show some before/after photos.

:

Coral #1

More to come.

 

[elegance coral]

Coral #2
day #1

week #1

week #2

More to come.

 

[cheeks69]

The problem started several years back. In the late 80's and early 90's there were natives in small boats with no scuba gear that collected most of the animals for the aquarium trade. Over time it became much harder to find Elegance corals in these shallow waters of the collection sights. They were forced to hire divers trained in scuba to dive to greater depths in order to find these corals. Even Borenman himself published an article stating that these corals can be found at depths of 114 ft, (a very dark environment) and were very hard to find in the shallows. This is when our problems appeared.

Could you please provide us with a source for this info ?

One that is well suited to the bright shallow waters and one suited to deep dark waters.

Well deep water corals are non-photosynthetic so is this a different sp. of Elegance corals ? Are they photosynthetic ?

You post photos but provide no info. What is the dates on the sequence of the photos ? Where is it placed ? What was the acclimation process ? What lighting are they under ? What condition was it in when you purchased it ?

 

[elegance coral]

Coral #3
This is a pic of coral #3 and #4 on day one.

week #1

week #2

A close up view of week #2

More to come

 

[cheeks69]

On post 24 you posted some photos but you really can't see any a swollen disk or retracted tentacles, it just appears to be withdrawn into the skeleton. Are all these your corals and are they in the same tank or different tanks ?

 

[lcstorc]

These look very different from my recently purchased elegance. Maybe it it the actinics changing the color.
I put mine on the supbstrate of a 6ft long 125 with 3 150w 10k MH and 4 96w pc actinics but under a piece of cloth for shading. It is still very early but for now it looks fabulous. It is very expanded even when the lights are out but the tentacles are out and very sticky. I have target fed it mush several times and generally overfeed in general so I am certain it has picked up some extra. It is between my 2 koralia #4s but both are directed a bit away from it so I don't see the flesh moving etc.
Just my short time experience. I did dip in an iodine dip before putting it in the reef. I have been trying tom follow all the advice given but don't really know what can or what to do if it it a pathogen.
If I have misunderstood any advice given let me know or if there are other suggestions I am certainly open to them. I am trying my best to keep this beautiful animal as long and as well as possible.
Here are a couple of bad pics from when I first got it. Little has changed for good or bad but the color is much more spectacular than in the pics. I will try to get some better ones tomorrow.

 

[elegance coral]

Coral #4
week #1

week #2

This is one of the few Elegance corals that actually do bleach. It has begun to regain its algae in the first month. I will try to post one month updates tomorrow.

 

[Techno-Vicki]

I so hope mine will live, Short term it looks awesome but I have been around enough to know that means nothing, Are there any estimates of how long the pathogen takes to damage/kill the coral? I am already going with the low light and low flow but it would be great to know when I am "out of the woods" Kind of like most people cannot keep gonipoira for a year or more.
Just curious really. I will do evenything I can to keep this coral healthy. Not only do I respect all life forms but this thing is absolutely gorgeous.

I know the belief out there is 'don't buy it if they have a high mortality rate'; however, I also believe that those of us who are really watching parameters, get as much information as possible, then we can add to the scientific data base and actually help with difficult corals. There is a lot of research being do on Dendroneptheas, gonioporas, and other difficult corals, and because of hobbiests trying to help understand their needs, we will see them become more successful.

 

[elegance coral]

Could you please provide us with a source for this info ?



Well deep water corals are non-photosynthetic so is this a different sp. of Elegance corals ? Are they photosynthetic ?

You post photos but provide no info. What is the dates on the sequence of the photos ? Where is it placed ? What was the acclimation process ? What lighting are they under ? What condition was it in when you purchased it ?

Here is an article, no wait, it can't be an article because it's on a forum. Here is something Eric Borenman wrote describing where these corals are coming from. http://www.advancedaquarist.com/iss...02/feature2.htm

This is not a different species of Elegance coral. Yes, they are photosynthetic. If they were non-photosynthetic they would not be having the problems I am describing. Non-photosynthetic corals do not have issues acclimating to light.

I provided a time line. Day #1, week #1, week #2, and said I would try to post one month pics today. The day #1 photos show the condition they were in when I purchased them. The lighting consists of one 250W 14K MH that runs a few hours a day, two 40W actinics, one 40W 50/50. and one 20W actinic. They are placed in the same aquarium.

 

[elegance coral]

Well it lasted 18 months so if it sick it certainly showed some stamina...

Elegance corals in the wild are well expanded and healthy. We remove them from this environment and expose them to light they are not accustom to. The relationship between the coral and its algae begins to break down. Oxygen production skyrockets and coral tissue is decimated. Just as an example, lets say that 1/3 of the corals tissue has been destroyed. It most likely took several years for the coral to grow this tissue in the wild. Now, just to get back to its former self the coral must regrow this tissue. If it took this coral several years to grow this tissue in the first place we can not expect them to regrow it over night. Even if they are in the best environment possible it will take time, alot of time, to get back to the fully expanded and healthy coral it was in the wild. The fact that your coral held on for 18 months until you admittedly placed it in a less than perfect environment is not a shock to me. In fact this is exactly what I would expect to see from one of these corals.

 

[sasquatch]

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[lcstorc]

I am trying to stay on track here, but really I just want mine to be happy and healthy. If I am reading this correctly the fact that the color has not changed and it is filled up like a baloon (slight exageration but man it is pretty expanded) and the tentacles are "sticky" at least make me think it is relatively ok. I do realize that often things look good for a time while there is an underlying problem but all I have to go on is what I see in the tank.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I have quickly fallen in love with this coral and really want to give it the best environment I possibly can.
Thanks

 

[elegance coral]

On post 24 you posted some photos but you really can't see any a swollen disk or retracted tentacles, it just appears to be withdrawn into the skeleton. Are all these your corals and are they in the same tank or different tanks ?

All these corals are in the same tank, and yes they are all mine. I have 9 at the moment.
There is a pattern to the decline and death of these corals. The first symptom is the swollen oral disk and shrunken tentacles. As this takes place the coral tissue is being ravaged. As the exposure continues more and more tissue is lost. The coral loses the ability to expand and retracts into its skeleton. If the exposure continues infection will take over and the coral will be lost. This is where the protozoan or pathogen theory got its start. If the coral is moved to a more suitable environment before infection sets in it stands a very good chance of recovery. After being placed in a more suitable environment it will slowly begin to expand again. You can see this in the pic's I posted. In time this expansion will increase and it will take on the appearance your coral had. The polyp will expand, but will be virtually flat and the tentacles will be short. In time the polyp will continue to grow and become wavy as the tentacles get longer. Eventually the coral will return to its fully expanded and healthy self.

 

[elegance coral]

I am trying to stay on track here, but really I just want mine to be happy and healthy. If I am reading this correctly the fact that the color has not changed and it is filled up like a baloon (slight exageration but man it is pretty expanded) and the tentacles are "sticky" at least make me think it is relatively ok. I do realize that often things look good for a time while there is an underlying problem but all I have to go on is what I see in the tank.
Please correct me if I am wrong, I have quickly fallen in love with this coral and really want to give it the best environment I possibly can.
Thanks

Even if you decide to believe the pathogen or protozoan theory it can not hurt to take the advice I am trying to give people. The people that support the protozoan theory say that there is no known cure and all you can do is watch your coral die. I have posted pictures that show it does not have to be this way.

Your coral is getting to much light and/or the temp is to high. Your coral is swelling. The pic you posted shows the polyp swollen to the point that it is pulling the mouth open and the tentacles are slightly withdrawing. The corals ability to deal with bright light increases as the temp is reduced. High temps combined with bright lights is a death sentence. If you want your coral to survive you must find a way to reduce the amount of light it is getting or bring the temp down so that you coral does not swell up any more. Every second that the coral remains swollen results in tissue damage. If the tentacles are still sticky this is a very good sign. This means that if you can stop the swelling the coral will still have the ability to feed. If the swelling continues the coral will lose this ability. It will need all the energy it can get to heal the damage that has been caused. Many of these corals lose the ability to sting which makes it impossible for them to feed properly. Elegance corals are ambush predators. They lie and wait for a small shrimp or fish to bump into their tentacles. At that point they inject the prey with venom and the prey goes into convulsions. This causes more tentacles to get into the action and continue to sting the prey until it dies. The coral will then move the prey to one of its mouths and consume it. In order to feed an Elegance we can mimic this process by gently wiggling a small piece of shrimp or fish (not from the grocery store) in its tentacles. The coral will do the rest. Most of the time if an Elegance does not detect any signs of life in the food it will not feed.

No matter where you stand on the issue, I sincerely hope you decide to take my advice. I wish you all the luck with your coral.

 

[elegance coral]

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Advanced Aquarist Feature Article - March 2002

I am no computer person. I have never tried to post a link before. In my thread in the LPS forum on RC titled Elegance Coral Theory on page #8 of that thread is the link. It was posted by Dia2000 on 8-2-07. The link works there. If someone with better computer skills than myself can get the link and post it here I would greatly appreciate it. Thanks.
Never mind. It worked that time.

 

[lcstorc]

I am trying to take your advice since in involves things at least possible for me to do. If ht pathogen theory is correct I am not aware of anything I can do to save it so I am going with trying whatever I can do.
Interresting notes on the feeding though. Mine ate and ate well when I placed small amounts of my homemade mush near/on the tentacles with my grabber thingey. This is how I feed my anemone so I figured it was worth a try and was pleasantly suprised when it ate every morsel given.
The pics I posted were taken almost immediately after intoduction to my system so they are not totally accurate. I'll get some more today and hopefully you will think it is a bit happier. If not I will try to find a place away from the halides and see if that helps. I do have a shade cover between it and the halides. Perhaps I need more shade. I'll post the newer pics and see what you think.
Thanks for the response. I am very devoted to trying to keep this gorgeous animal alive.

 

[elegance coral]

This is a video of me feeding a couple of my Elegance corals.
Sharkle.com - Free Online Video Sharing Community

 

[lcstorc]

That looks a lot like what I did except I used the grabber thingy and mush instead of fingers and whatever food you were feeding.
I have to assume that eating is good so I have at least one positive to hold on to. I'll get some pics this afternoon when I take pics of the rock in the new tank.
Thanks again
Sorry Kathy for the hijack. Please forgive me.