Elegance Coral Theory questions

[lcstorc]

I wonder how captive breeding fits into the theory. Is it thick skinned because the parent was captured long ago, or thin skinned because it was raised in aquaria?
Too many question. Not really any solid answers. See, now this is why I did not become a scientist. A computer does what you tell it to do. Now, figuring out how to get the message across is another story.

Best of luck with your new baby. I had no idea they even could be captive bred.

 

[elegance coral]

Well Oldsaint since yours is doing so well under 400 watters then we can rule out yours is taken from deeper water.

elegance coral I would appreciate if you could answer some of the questions I have posted, TIA.
AFA the comments about Borneman he did say it was a theory right, nothing conclusive to this point ?

Eric:

You have asked me alot of questions. I am trying to get to them all. I will answer more later today after I return from work.

Borneman does state that the problems with these corals is contagious and he knows this for a fact. The problem is not contagious. The aftermath can become contagious just as any other infection can. Because of this statement many people believe that the swollen oral disk and shrunken tentacles is contagious. It is not. When I receive a new Elegance and place it in the tank with my other Elegance corals there are times this new coral will begin to swell until I find a spot for it where the light is not strong enough to cause this reaction. The other corals in the tank that have had time to acclimate to the lights do not begin to swell because the new coral is swelling. This is the problem we are having with these corals and it is not contagious. I have 9 Elegance corals in the same tank. Many of them were severely damaged when I got them. If this were contagious they would have made the other corals in my system ill. This does not happen.

 

[elegance coral]

I wonder how captive breeding fits into the theory. Is it thick skinned because the parent was captured long ago, or thin skinned because it was raised in aquaria?
Too many question. Not really any solid answers. See, now this is why I did not become a scientist. A computer does what you tell it to do. Now, figuring out how to get the message across is another story.

Best of luck with your new baby. I had no idea they even could be captive bred.

No. This was a false assumption of mine that I posted in a theory. There is no skin thickness issue. At the time I was still trying to figure out what all the symptoms I was seeing meant. These corals can be damaged far easier than a healthy coral. To explain this I thought that the skin or tissue of the coral may be thinner at greater depth to allow more light to penetrate the coral. I was wrong. The tissue is damages easier because of the damage it sustains as it swells up and withdraws its tentacles. This is precisely why I didn't want to post that theory when I did. I was afraid that something like this may happen. I did not fully understand what these corals were going through at the time. I posted it because of pressure from hobbyist that wanted to know what my thoughts were up to that point. I apologize for any confusion I may have caused.

 

[blue_eyes53813]

They are beautiful corals.. I like to see conversations like this.. The care and survival of the coral is the most important thing.

 

[elegance coral]

Humm advancedaquarist online magazine is just a little different than a reefing forum but I guess we don't need to worry about these details...



I can't tell from the photos but do any of your Catalaphyllias have purple tips ? Also I don't see any info on the depth at which these are collected but at 114 ft. I don't know of anything photosynthetic that would survive at this depth so I would appreciate if you could tell me where you found this info.

If the issue is only the light/temp then at least the light issue is easy to resolve, just shade it from direct light. Could you please explain your acclimation process such as where did you place the corals ? How long did you shade them ? What was your photoperiod ? How far are they from the lights ? What are the dimensions of the tank ? etc.

I do not have any purple tipped Elegance at the moment. I have had one for sure and one other that I was told had purple tips but it never opened up enough for me to tell. I do not believe that the color of the tips of the tentacles can be used as a guide to tell us where our Elegance came from. I believe this is a genetic trait. There are patches of Elegance corals in the wild that share similar traits. I believe this is due to many generations of the same coral being reproduced in the same area. No matter how much you alter the environment of an Elegance you can not change a pink tipped Elegance into a purple tipped Elegance. I do not believe that the purple tipped Elegance Borenman saw at these greater depths was the result of the depth of the water. I have seen purple tipped Elegance from Australia that were obviously from shallow water. In fact I recently saw one in an SPS tank with very bright lights and it was very healthy.

 

[elegance coral]

They are beautiful corals.. I like to see conversations like this.. The care and survival of the coral is the most important thing.

I could not agree more. This is the only reason I put myself through all this. I know how to care for and keep these corals. I am trying to tell others so that they too can keep these corals. Hopefully, some day we can look back and say, "Remember when Elegance corals were hard to keep?" My goal is to put an end to the large death toll these corals experience today.

 

[kathywithbirds]

I could not agree more. This is the only reason I put myself through all this. I know how to care for and keep these corals. I am trying to tell others so that they too can keep these corals. Hopefully, some day we can look back and say, "Remember when Elegance corals were hard to keep?" My goal is to put an end to the large death toll these corals experience today.

Should I open up another can of worms and repeat what some say of corals and anything else we take from the wild to keep as pets? -- that we should leave them there and try not to disturb them or their environment?

(Uncle calls this the "primary directive" belief...)

I'm not sure where I ultimately stand on that... we've done so much damage through our ignorance or carelessness that I believe we should try to repair the damage, including raising wild creatures in captivity if it keeps them in existence and returns a population to the wild eventually... I also believe my pets have a nice life with me as I try to care for them the very best way I can. And I like the "peaceable kingdom" idea in which humans provide the best they can for creatures both in their care and in the wild.

 

[lcstorc]

I have seen purple tipped Elegance from Australia that were obviously from shallow water. In fact I recently saw one in an SPS tank with very bright lights and it was very healthy.

Now I am completely confused. This is contrary to what you have said in both threads.

I guess I will just use common sense and common reefkeeping to try to allow mine to live and hopefully thrive.

 

[sasquatch]

Now I am completely confused. This is contrary to what you have said in both threads.

I guess I will just use common sense and common reefkeeping to try to allow mine to live and hopefully thrive.

In the final result Lynn, thats all there will ever be, theres a glimmer of gold in a lot of rocks, its the mining thats the hard part. Steve

 

[elegance coral]

Now I am completely confused. This is contrary to what you have said in both threads.

I guess I will just use common sense and common reefkeeping to try to allow mine to live and hopefully thrive.

Wait a minute. You haven't read the whole thing. There are Elegance corals that have this problem and there are those that don't. Most of the Australian Elegance corals don't show the problems we see in the Indo Elegance. I believe this is due to the fact that there is no need to dive to great depths to collect them there. The shallow water Elegance corals have all but been fished out in the collection areas of the Indo Pacific. In order to collect them there they have been forced to dive to much greater depths. These are the corals I have been talking about and the ones that represent the bulk of the corals coming into the hobby. Shallow water Elegance corals do not have the drastic problems acclimating to aquarium lights that the deep water Elegance corals do. There is much more light in 10 ft. of water than there is at 100 ft. In the last thread I used the term "deep water Elegance" many many many times. I have also explained how I believe the problem is associated with the clad of algae being used by the coral. There are clads of algae that are adapted to life in deeper darker waters. There are clads of algae the have adapted to brighter more shallow water. I believe it is the clad of algae these corals are using to survive at the great depths that is causing all our problems.

What I said earlier is not contrary to what I have been saying. You have just missed a few key points of what I have been saying.

 

[charlesr1958]

Ah, the guessing game continues, first it was skin thickness and now algae clads, sorry, but where, or I should ask, HOW do you come up with these theorys? Am not trying to be rude, just to the point. I have to say that I find it amazing that you can take Eric Borneman's statement and just dismiss it as being untrue. What proof do you have that it is not an infectious disease?
The elegance coral "problem" has never been noted in the wild by others, and I have never seen a wild elegant coral being anything but vibrant and healthy, and I have seen a great many of them. Both shallow (15') and deep (40') which is the deepest I have ever seen one. Not exactly what I would call "deep" though.
How do you even know that any of the elegant corals that you have or have had, ever had the "problem" ? What you describe as being in bad shape when you got them could be caused by any number of common problems corals face in aquarium life. To say that you have rescued or cured such corals from the "problem" would mean that you know what the problem is, which you don't, which makes your theorys and this entire discussion....moot.

Chuck

 

[lcstorc]

Well since I have carefully read and re-read every post here as well as several trhreads posted elsewhere. So I guess I am just stupid. To cap it all off my elegance did not look well yesterday at all. I have tried to do everything suggested that I understood and still the animal is clearly failing. I may try to move it to a different tank with T5 lights this wekend just to try yet one more thing to hopefully save this beautiful animal.
The saddeds think is that I would haven never bought/tried one except these thread made me think there were at least some good ideas and I thought I had a reasonable chance with my tanks, expecience, and lighting.
Guess I was wrong. It totally stinks that the animal as to pay the price. My price was just in money and time. The coral woll likely pay the ultimate price.
I swear I did the best I could do and will still not give up until there is nothing left. I could stumble upon somehting that helps therefore allowing the animal to live even in it's damaged state.

 

[cheeks69]

Lynn can you describe what's happening with the coral ? Do you have it shaded from direct light ? Have you tried to feed it ? Is there any other corals near it ?

I think moving it will just be more stressful, I would just leave it be and let it acclimate to the tank IMHO.

 

[sasquatch]

Maybe some pics so Darell can do a virtual diagnosis?

 

[kathywithbirds]

Oh no Lynn, it's such a gorgeous coral! I hope it perks up for you, whatever you do.

I actually saw an elegance for sale online, I'll have to check what retailer it was. I've never seen one in an LFS or online before. Then again, I've only been to places in the area.

 

[prow]

worms worms worms, everywhere i see worms.

Lynn, only posting for you here. i have had a couple elegance corals before. two i had good results and were healthy corals. one did not make it. the one that did not make it, i believe, was more due to water flow. the ones that live long until i got rid of them did very well in almost stagnant water. try to reduce the flow around the coral so there is only a light swaying of current. also try not to allow the flow to go under and up on the coral. if i said that right, it will help prevent a updraft on that could slowly pull the tissue off the skeleton. also if the flow stirs up sand particles and such those could be irritating it also. slow acclimation to lighting, i know you did this, but might need to reduce lighting again. the swelling of the coral doesnt help the tissue stay on the skeleton either. the swelling togather with a updraft could cause the coral to use most of its energy trying to stay on the skeleton. if the tissue has already started to recede from the skeleton get it up off the sand, if its there, and try to keep any algae/bac from growing there. pics would help to determine if this a diseased or just super stressed. later the flow will not bother it so. now its just trying to normalize itsself. the swelling is not uncommon and in of itself is not bad. but it allows for water flow and floating particles as well as lighting to effect/irritate it more. if there is swelling going on that is. shriveling is what might happen if it couldnt adjust before exhausting its resources. or the lighting is too high or the ___ or the___ or poosibly the____ lol, JMO

dont know if this will help, but its something. best of luck to you lynn. dont get too frustrated, it could be something that was going to happen no matter what you did.

 

[elegance coral]

I wrote my original theory about 4 months ago. I stated in that theory that I had much more work to do. I explained that I was posting it prematurely. I stated that I had come up with different theories along the way only to prove myself wrong. I also explained that I was posting it because friends and people on RC talked me into it. If I had all the answers in the beginning I never would have started this research. My goal, as I stated in that theory, was to find a way to keep them alive. I never set out to prove or disprove the pathogen theory or any other theory. I started buying Elegance corals with no idea what was killing them or how to care for these sick corals. I began experimenting with different foods and sources for different foods. I experimented with flow and lighting. I have placed my corals in every environment I could think of in the search for something that would keep them alive. I have lost quite a few corals and spent more money than I can afford doing this. This is what research is all about. You start with a question and you test potential answers until you come up with one that works. I didn't solve the problem with my first try, or my second, or my third. I have been at this for more than a year and a half. I have had help from many people along the way and I have done a great deal of reading on the related subjects. It has been a very long road, but I am now able to keep these corals alive. I can even bring back corals that are in serious trouble. If you review all the facts that we know to be true, you can not come up with one that disputes what I am saying today. I have had ideas along the way that did not pan out. I explained these ideas under the title of a theory. I made every effort to explain that I was not sure exactly what these corals were going through at the time. To attempt to use someones ideas that they had in the middle of a research project to discredit the end results is ignorant, petty, and just plain wrong.

It was insinuated earlier in this thread that I was calling Eric Borenman a lire. This could not be further from the truth! I believe everything Mr. Borenman has said he saw. I do not believe that Mr. Borenman has made any effort to mislead the people in this hobby. The facts are facts and I agree with Mr. Borenman on the facts associated with this issue. I disagree with his theories associated with this issue. This is far different than calling him a lire.

 

[lcstorc]

Ok so I will break down and tell my story in the hope that it will save an animal a neeless death down the line.
I purchased my Elegance around AUG 3 or that is at least the date on the pics. I thought I had it in mid July but I am not certain.
Here are a couple of pics taken on the 3rd regardless.

 

[lcstorc]

The coral looked gorgeous to me but of course I knew very little about this coral however I had been reading a thread with lots of info so I decided to give it a try. From what I was reading there were 2 real keys. One is that they do not like a lot of light, so I created a shade canopy that went above my eggcrate between my 150w MH and the coral. There was visible shade from the canopy s0 I thought I was headed in the right direction. I did dip the coral in Kent coral dip per directions at the suggestion of the lfs. When I put it in the tanj it was sticky to the touch and looked great to me. The second issuenn I had ben reading about was flow. I have Hydor Koralie Power Heads so they already disperse the flow pretty good but between re-directing power heads and moving rock to form somewhat of an enclosure you could just see the flesh move slightly in the flow. Nothing at all dramatic and no sibstrate moving but enough that it wasn't sitting water either.
Twice in between I feed each head a morsel of my mush using my grabbers. Both times the tentacles gladly grabbed the meat and put it in the mouth. So, I know it ate at least twice in my care and every mouth ate.

 

[elegance coral]

Now your coral is not showing the large oral disk it shows in the pic, and it is withdrawing especially late in the day. Is this correct?