Why is my tank so unstable? (test results)

Smoker

Member
20L running for 1-1/2 years. I thought CO2 had messed things up so I added a scrubber. Test results started to look like they should except for Ammonia and Nitrite. Where does it and nitrate come from? I have 1 fish and don't feed it.

I was doing 20% water changes once a week but since encountering this they have no effect. I turned the scrubber off when things were looking more normal and tests results started going awry again. Can CO2 alone mess things up this bad? Is the live rock the culprit? (I use RO/DI water.

tests101.jpg


I use API, Red Sea and meters for testing.
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20 gal. long with 2.5 gal. refugium
2.5 inch sandbed
35 lbs. live rock
132W lights run up to 6 hours a day, if at all
1800gph circulation, Koralia Evo 600 x3
HOB filter w/Purigen, GFO & Chemi-pure changed monthly & foam sponge weekly
Protein Skimmer, Aqua C nano
UV runs 1 week per month
1 unfed fish, snails

929sign2.jpg
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
just guessing... so see what others think, many know more than I

but could it be the UV, my understanding is something dies, converts to ammonia, the ammonia converts to nitrites & the nitrites convert to nitrates - the nitrates are usually exported by water changes - nitrate reduction is directly proportional to percentage of wc... so if you do a 20% wc, you reduce them by 20%

Your cpe (carbon & gfo) is reducing phosphates, might run a 100 ml bag of purigen - Purigen; removes proteins, nitrites and nitrates, ammonia, and a broad spectrum of organics

on ph 7.8 - 8.3 is fine...

just some thoughts... see what others think
 

frisbee

Well-Known Member
Have you ever thought about just running the tank like you would a freshwater tank? Just stir up the substrate every 2 weeks or so and do a water change? It doesn't have to be so complicated sometimes. Loose the HOB and the UV, and just go natural so to say. Your already using RO/DI, so that's a good start. GL.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
The very first thing I would do is replace all the test kits. It is very unlikely to see such swings, especially in nitrate, and magnesium. Get quality test kits to such as Sailfret, and order them online from a major vendor, since you never know how long the test kits have been sitting in the LFS.

Now assuming that these readings are correct. Here are the changes I'd make.

Reduce the sandbed depth to about 3/4 to 1 inch. At 2 1/2 inches it's a dirt trap and nitrate factory. Sand beds should either be really deep, over 4 inches, or really shallow, 1 inch or less.

Reduce the live rock to about 20 lbs. You can use your bathroom scale to measure it. Again, this much rock creates big dirt traps. While doing this look for any areas of rock that might contain a lot of dead material, such as sponges, tube worms, and so on. Remove anything questionable. Be sure to inspect all the live rock.

As a note, your live rock looks non-porous in the pict. If this is the case, you might want to replace some of it, but that can get expensive. Offhand it doesn't look like 35 lbs of rock. If you had that much, it would almost fill the tank with rock. Keep in mind that this may need to be increased or decreased depending on what it weighs in at.

Blow out the remaining live rock with a powerhead, and clean out the sandbed as much as you can. You want to get rid of as much dirt as you can.

Remove two of the Koralia Evo 600's. You have way too much circulation for a 20 gal tank. Even 600 gph is a lot.

Remove the chemical media from your HOB filter for now. I'm wondering how you even managed to get all that in there. I suspect that it's jammed really tight and not getting circulation through it. This is going to cause a problem too. Once you get the system stable, you can add some of this back. Clean the rest of the filter.

Make sure you skimmer is working properly.

What is the source of your RO/DI water? In any case, test it before you mix your salt, and after it's mixed. If your getting the RO/DI water from your LFS, that could be the problem right there.

The UV is unlikely to be doing much. It's not going to hurt anything, but you don't seem to have any of the problems UV is good at solving.

Tell us more about your refugium. How is it set up and what do you have in it? This is another potential dirt trap, but it also might be fine.

What is your salt brand? While I don't think this is the issue, and there is no one "best" brand, there are some brands that are second rate out there.

At this point you have removed as much dirt as possible and any dead material.

Test the water daily, paying special attention to ammonia and nitrite. A reading other than 0 in either of these indicates a problem. For now monitor the others, but don't worry about them for now. Until you get ammonia and nitrite under control, the others can wait. Case in point, if you can't breathe you don't need to worry about what your going to have for dinner that night. (grin)

Take your time, and let the system take it's course. Don't make anything but critical changes. Your trying to get the tank stable.

It may take time, and you may see the tank cycle. Only make water changes if you must reduce ammonia or nitrite. Try not to make any. Feed very lightly if at all.

Good luck.
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Have you ever thought about just running the tank like you would a freshwater tank? Just stir up the substrate every 2 weeks or so and do a water change? It doesn't have to be so complicated sometimes. Loose the HOB and the UV, and just go natural so to say. Your already using RO/DI, so that's a good start. GL.

This could be one way of doing things, but I'd only recommend it if the OP was going to tear the tank down and start all over. Since the existing tank is unstable right now, trying to modify it to this type of configuration would likely invite a disaster.
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Clearly something is very wrong here.

First - what else are you adding to the tank? Your dkh readings are at 19 and 22! That doesn't happen with a water change unless something is very, very off. Likely something else you are adding to the tank is causing your issues. Salt water will find a natural balance over time if you add nothing to the tank, and properly mixed salt water changes will not create that big of a variation that quickly.

A tank that is a year and a half old generally does not continue to cycle unless something is being added to cause the ammonia spikes to occur.

If it were me: step one would be to remove all of that unnecessary equipment. Pull those power heads and clean them in a vinegar bath outside of the tank. That's a ton of flow for no good reason right now.

Clean out the HOB and take off the UV. If you are changing your water weekly you likely don't even need the skimmer, if you wanted to go that route.

Step 2 - get new test kits and make sure your probes are properly calibrated and accurate. Get your LFS to test your water to confirm your results. And then get another reef friend to do so as well. Personally I think your test results seem highly suspect.

Step 3 - don't touch the tank. Let it relax for a while and get in balance naturally. No new equipment, no new anything. Feed your fish please. Let's see what happens once you get your equipment cleaned, and your test results verified. You do not need any additives, whatsoever.

Take off the scrubber. If you are getting nuisance algae it is likely being fed from the same source that is causing the swings in your parameters.

Step 4 - patience. Get your water changes done with properly mixed salt water and let this balance out. Then we can help you figure out what is going on here.

Also - I personally would not ever stir up a 2.5 inch sandbed that is 1 1/2 years old. Your power heads stirring up that sandbed may be a partial source of your problem if they are a newer addition, causing the ammonia and nitrite issues, but that is just a wild guess.

Good luck - with some more information we may be able to help you better.
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
I was writing my response when DaveK wrote his - his is better! Listen to him first!
 

sirrealism

Well-Known Member
DaveK and Newo11 are right. There is something very wrong. This is going to sound silly. Do you have kids? It would not be the first time kids wanted to be like dad and put things in the tank. Other then that fallow DaveK.
 

frisbee

Well-Known Member
This could be one way of doing things, but I'd only recommend it if the OP was going to tear the tank down and start all over. Since the existing tank is unstable right now, trying to modify it to this type of configuration would likely invite a disaster.

Like what? In your last sentence up above, you said that you may see the tank cycle, so isn't this pretty much square one to begin with?
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
Like what? In your last sentence up above, you said that you may see the tank cycle, so isn't this pretty much square one to begin with?

No it's not at all alike.

To keep a more or less low tech natural tank such as you suggested requires that you maintain a rather delicate balance between everything. It can be done, but you can't allow the tank to get out of control, or else you have a tank of very dead livestock.

In this case, the tank is already out of balance and has problems, but they can be resolved. Also the equipment is already purchased, and no major equipment upgrades are needed. This means your not going to save anything by going with a low tech system. It also means that it would be difficult to establish the balance needed for such a system, unless you get very lucky and are able to pin point the exact source of the original problems.

You can also control a new cycle in the tank by doing water changes, or as an alternative remove the livestock and just let the cycle run it's course without any water changes.

Normally you'd want to cycle a tank and just let everything run it's course, because it's the quickest way. However, since there is existing livestock, you need to keep the cycle under control, so water changes might be needed. It's also possible that there may be little or no cycle, since the live rock is already in the tank, and seeded with bacteria.
 

frisbee

Well-Known Member
There's a reason why books regarding this hobby don't come out that often. It's just the same old information being rehased by somebody else...

I still think you might be OVERthinking this, but hey, whatevers clever trever...

Good luck OP. :)
 

Smoker

Member
The very first thing I would do is replace all the test kits. It is very unlikely to see such swings, especially in nitrate, and magnesium. Get quality test kits to such as Sailfret, and order them online from a major vendor, since you never know how long the test kits have been sitting in the LFS.

Now assuming that these readings are correct. Here are the changes I'd make.

Reduce the sandbed depth to about 3/4 to 1 inch. At 2 1/2 inches it's a dirt trap and nitrate factory. Sand beds should either be really deep, over 4 inches, or really shallow, 1 inch or less.

Reduce the live rock to about 20 lbs. You can use your bathroom scale to measure it. Again, this much rock creates big dirt traps. While doing this look for any areas of rock that might contain a lot of dead material, such as sponges, tube worms, and so on. Remove anything questionable. Be sure to inspect all the live rock.

As a note, your live rock looks non-porous in the pict. If this is the case, you might want to replace some of it, but that can get expensive. Offhand it doesn't look like 35 lbs of rock. If you had that much, it would almost fill the tank with rock. Keep in mind that this may need to be increased or decreased depending on what it weighs in at.

Blow out the remaining live rock with a powerhead, and clean out the sandbed as much as you can. You want to get rid of as much dirt as you can.

Remove two of the Koralia Evo 600's. You have way too much circulation for a 20 gal tank. Even 600 gph is a lot.

Remove the chemical media from your HOB filter for now. I'm wondering how you even managed to get all that in there. I suspect that it's jammed really tight and not getting circulation through it. This is going to cause a problem too. Once you get the system stable, you can add some of this back. Clean the rest of the filter.

Make sure you skimmer is working properly.

What is the source of your RO/DI water? In any case, test it before you mix your salt, and after it's mixed. If your getting the RO/DI water from your LFS, that could be the problem right there.

The UV is unlikely to be doing much. It's not going to hurt anything, but you don't seem to have any of the problems UV is good at solving.

Tell us more about your refugium. How is it set up and what do you have in it? This is another potential dirt trap, but it also might be fine.

What is your salt brand? While I don't think this is the issue, and there is no one "best" brand, there are some brands that are second rate out there.

At this point you have removed as much dirt as possible and any dead material.

Test the water daily, paying special attention to ammonia and nitrite. A reading other than 0 in either of these indicates a problem. For now monitor the others, but don't worry about them for now. Until you get ammonia and nitrite under control, the others can wait. Case in point, if you can't breathe you don't need to worry about what your going to have for dinner that night. (grin)

Take your time, and let the system take it's course. Don't make anything but critical changes. Your trying to get the tank stable.

It may take time, and you may see the tank cycle. Only make water changes if you must reduce ammonia or nitrite. Try not to make any. Feed very lightly if at all.

Good luck.

Ammonia and Nitrite bottles are old and new on the way. NO3, Mg, Ca, dKH, are new and pH is a new meter.

Some of the live rock grows stuff even with lights out for days. That's the rock in the front of the tank. I'm going to get rid of it. The rest of the rock is from Reef Cleaners. I'm not going to add anything new until the tank is stable.

There is lots of room in the HOB filter (Fluval 3). I measure 20 grams of each chemical and the little bags tumble around. I will stop it though as you advise. Its a good time to take out sand.

I don't know if the skimmer is working properly. In a few days it collects a half inch of brown liquid that stinks. I thought due to conditions it should have been doing more.

The strong circ. pumps are because it seems like they don't perform as rated. I have nanos I could use = 480gph. They also seem too weak.

RO/DI source is my tap and I have a TDS meter measuring in and out water. I also have a pocket meter I use to check once in awhile. When water measures .001 I change the filters.

The refugium is CPR AquaFuge2. I have a few pieces of small live rock in there and a ball of cheato. It is only 2 months old. The grate gathers algae.

My salt brand had been Instant Ocean. I recently switched to Reef Crystals but that was after I already had this problem.

I've always suspected the batch of live rock I bought on eBay. Lately I've also thought the sand bed was a problem. This will give me a new tank.

Thank you very much for your help.
 

Smoker

Member
Clearly something is very wrong here.

First - what else are you adding to the tank? Your dkh readings are at 19 and 22! That doesn't happen with a water change unless something is very, very off. Likely something else you are adding to the tank is causing your issues. Salt water will find a natural balance over time if you add nothing to the tank, and properly mixed salt water changes will not create that big of a variation that quickly.

A tank that is a year and a half old generally does not continue to cycle unless something is being added to cause the ammonia spikes to occur.

If it were me: step one would be to remove all of that unnecessary equipment. Pull those power heads and clean them in a vinegar bath outside of the tank. That's a ton of flow for no good reason right now.

Clean out the HOB and take off the UV. If you are changing your water weekly you likely don't even need the skimmer, if you wanted to go that route.

Step 2 - get new test kits and make sure your probes are properly calibrated and accurate. Get your LFS to test your water to confirm your results. And then get another reef friend to do so as well. Personally I think your test results seem highly suspect.

Step 3 - don't touch the tank. Let it relax for a while and get in balance naturally. No new equipment, no new anything. Feed your fish please. Let's see what happens once you get your equipment cleaned, and your test results verified. You do not need any additives, whatsoever.

Take off the scrubber. If you are getting nuisance algae it is likely being fed from the same source that is causing the swings in your parameters.

Step 4 - patience. Get your water changes done with properly mixed salt water and let this balance out. Then we can help you figure out what is going on here.

Also - I personally would not ever stir up a 2.5 inch sandbed that is 1 1/2 years old. Your power heads stirring up that sandbed may be a partial source of your problem if they are a newer addition, causing the ammonia and nitrite issues, but that is just a wild guess.

Good luck - with some more information we may be able to help you better.

I have been adding Kent Tech M magnesium for months. It got rid of hair algae so I add it a few times a week. I also started dosing vinegar after I had got to wits end. I got a new Hanna Checker for the last two weeks of dKH readings. I was using Red Sea for the very high tests.

I was doing 20% WC a week and it was useless. So I bought a skimmer. I've always thought I got a bad batch of live rock. eBay and Puerto Rico rock.

2) I'm switching to meters for all tests that I can. LFS uses API. They are the best store in the county and beyond.

3) That will be my intention when I get the sand and bad rocks out. I will test out of curiosity.

4) The power heads never disturbed the sand. I think they are over-rated and why I had so much.

Thank you for your help.
 

mikecc

Member
Just curious... What does your tank look like? What problems are your livestock suffering? What all are you dosing?
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
...
I don't know if the skimmer is working properly. In a few days it collects a half inch of brown liquid that stinks. I thought due to conditions it should have been doing more.

The strong circ. pumps are because it seems like they don't perform as rated. I have nanos I could use = 480gph. They also seem too weak.

..
The refugium is CPR AquaFuge2. I have a few pieces of small live rock in there and a ball of cheato. It is only 2 months old. The grate gathers algae.

...

I have been adding Kent Tech M magnesium for months. It got rid of hair algae so I add it a few times a week. I also started dosing vinegar after I had got to wits end. I got a new Hanna Checker for the last two weeks of dKH readings. I was using Red Sea for the very high tests.

I was doing 20% WC a week and it was useless. So I bought a skimmer. I've always thought I got a bad batch of live rock. eBay and Puerto Rico rock.

...

Your skimmer sounds OK. It can depend upon what is available to remove.

I find it very hard to believe that you would have 3 circulation pumps in there, and they are all that bad. They might need cleaning though. Keep in mind that a pump would only need to move about 200 gph to give you a turnover of 10x per hour. My original advice still stands, you have way too many of them in there.

For now stop dosing everything. I didn't realize you were doing that. It's not that this is a bad thing to do, but for now you need to get the ammonia and nitrite issues solved.


Your LFS uses API test kits because they are cheep to purchase. This don't not necessarily make them any good. Personally I have had issues with several of them over the years.

Carefully check your CPR refugium for any places that can make it a dirt trap. This includes live rock and any macro algae in it. A refugium like this should be fed with prefiltered water. This is difficult to do with the CPR refugiums.
 

Paul B

Well-Known Member
Have you ever thought about just running the tank like you would a freshwater tank? Just stir up the substrate every 2 weeks or so and do a water change? It doesn't have to be so complicated sometimes. Loose the HOB and the UV, and just go natural so to say. Your already using RO/DI, so that's a good start. GL.

Sounds good to me. IMO the tanks with all the tweeking, testing, dosing and tweeking again crash first. Just my opinion of course. Have a nice day
 

Smoker

Member
I find it very hard to believe that you would have 3 circulation pumps in there, and they are all that bad. They might need cleaning though. Keep in mind that a pump would only need to move about 200 gph to give you a turnover of 10x per hour. My original advice still stands, you have way too many of them in there.

Carefully check your CPR refugium for any places that can make it a dirt trap. This includes live rock and any macro algae in it. A refugium like this should be fed with prefiltered water. This is difficult to do with the CPR refugiums.

My pumps were bought at different times and all act the same. They wouldn't make a coral sway and didn't bother sand. When a coral needed high flow I couldn't find an area. Pumps were cleaned bi-monthly because of sediment buildup and algae growing on them.

CPR fuge is building a dirt sheet all over the rear wall and algae is growing there. The live rock looked bad too so I removed it. Chaeto stays idle and looks to also be gathering dirt.

All live rock gone, 3 medium size base rocks remain...and only 1 circulation pump! Sand is another day.

newsat.jpg


The fish will live. I'll put it in a perfect tank that I never bother with.
 

SantaMonica

Well-Known Member
PREMIUM
You have almost no periphyton on the rocks. Periphyton is the greatest stabilizer...

What is Periphyton?


Periphyton is what turns your rocks different colors. You know... the white rocks you started with in SW, or the grey rocks (or brown wood) you started with in FW. After several months or years, the rocks become a variety of different colors and textures. Why? Because the periphyton that has grown on it is a mix of different living things, of different colors, and thicknesses. And the important part is: It is LIVING.


That's right: The colored stuff that has coated your rocks is all living organisms. Sponges, microbes, algae, cyano, biofilms, and of course coralline. After all, "peri" means "around the outside", and "phyto" means "plant". Ever slipped in a slippery puddle? That's probably periphyton that made it slippery. It's a very thin coating on the rocks, sometimes paper thin.


There is a lot of photosynthetic organisms in periphyton, and this of course means that they need light; but they need nutrients too (ammonia, nitrate, phosphate). And as you might figure, they will be on the lighted portions of the rocks. And they will grow to intercept food particles in the water, based on the water flow. Just think about how sponges orient their holes for water flow; the micro sponges in periphyton do it too but on a tiny scale.


What about under the rocks, in the dark areas? Well these periphyton don't get light, so they are primarily filter feeders. So they REALLY grow and position themselves to be able to intercept food particles. And they don't really need to fight off algae, because algae does not grow in the dark, so they have no need for anti-algae tactics like plants in the light have.


Reef studies have show that at certain depths, more of the filtering of the water comes from periphyton and benthic algae than comes from the phytoplankton which filters the deeper water. And in streams, almost all the filtering is done by periphyton. So, what you have on rocks that are "mature" or "established" is a well-developed layer of periphyton; and all the things that comes from it.


This is why mandarin fish can eat directly off the rocks of an "established" tank (tons of pods grow in the periphyton), but not on the rocks of a new tank. Or why some animals can lay their eggs on established rocks, but not new ones. Or why established tanks seem to "yo-yo" less than new ones. Even tangs can eat periphyton directly when it's thick enough. Yes periphyton can also develop on the sand, but since the sand is moved around so much, the periphyton does not get visible like it does on rocks. So thick periphyton on established rocks is your friend. And totally natural too. Keep in mind though I'm not referring to nuisance algae on rocks; I'm only referring to the very-thin layer of coloring that coats the rocks.


But what happens when you "scrape the stuff off your rocks"? Well you remove some of the periphyton, which means you remove some of your natural filter and food producer. What if you take the rocks out and scrub them? Well now you not only remove more of your natural filter and food producer, but the air is going to kill even more of the microscopic sponges in it. And what if you bleach the rocks? Well, goodbye all filtering and food producing for another year. It's an instant reduction of the natural filtering that the periphyton was providing.


However, what if you just re-arrange the rocks? Well, some of the periphyton that was in the light, now will be in the dark; so this part will die. And some of the periphyton that was in the dark will now be in the light, so it will not be able to out-compete photosynthetic growth and thus will be covered and die too. And even if the light stays the same, the direction and amount of water flow (and food particles) will change; sponges that were oriented to get food particles from one direction will now starve. So since the light and food supply is cut off, the filtering that the periphyton was providing stops almost immediately from just re-arranging.


Starvation takes a little longer. The periphyton organisms won't die immediately, since they have some energy saved up; but instead, they will wither away over several weeks. So on top of the instant reduction in filtering that you get my just moving the rocks, you get a somewhat stretched-out period of nutrients going back into the water. And after all this, it takes another long period of time for the periphyton to build up to the levels it was at before. Even changing the direction of a powerhead will affect the food particle supply in the area it used to be pointed at.


So a good idea is to try to keep everything the same. Pick your lighting, flow, layout, and try to never move or change anything. It's a different way of thinking, but you should have a stronger natural filter and food producer because of it.
 
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