water changes necessary or not?

[El Duderinho]

Hey all,

So I noticed that most people advice water changes and I know it's the way to go and all. However, the lady from the store where I bought my RSM250 says it's not really necessary if you have enough live rock, that they take care of the nitrate together with the protein skimmer. Apparently she does not do the water changes in the RSM250 that's in the store and it has a reef with several fish and soft&hard corals.
I've noticed some other people here on the forums who don't do it either.
So what about it? How necessary is it? Is it a matter of unmeasured chemical substrates that need to be replaced when depleted or something else? Why do some people get by not doing the water changes?

I'm planning on doing the water changes (my RSM250 just started to cycle, so not necessary so far), but wanted to hear different opinions with pro's and con's...

PS: sorry if this thread has been done in the past but the search engine ignores 'changes' so basically only looks for 'water' which isn't that specific either on a forum like this )

 

[BigAl07]

Hello and welcome to RS!

You're about to learn a lesson about LFS's.

A) Either they honestly don't KNOW otherwise and are giving ignorant information

or

B) They know different but it goes against how THEY do things in their store/business.

Keep in mind that many LFS do things "Old School" and honestly don't know anything different.

Also realize that a LFS is int the business to make "turns" which is FISH IN and quickly FISH OUT! Due to the fact of "scooping water" all the time she is indeed doing partial water changes.

Without water changes your tank becomes deficient of essential elements through the process of living and growing. I mean think about it.. if a coral is "taking up" calcium from the tank where does the replacement Calc come from?

Take VERY bit of advice you get from your LFS with a grain of salt and RESEARCH it thoroughly!! More often than not they are DEAD wrong!


As far as "Live Rock" taking are of Nitrates... HOG-WASH! Nitrates are reduced through ANEAROBIC bacteria deep in the sand bed of a mature and stable tank. Without a Deep Sand Bed and a VERY mature tank NO3 (Nitrates) only build and cause harm.

 

[BigJay]

Without water changes your tank becomes deficient of essential elements through the process of living and growing. .

Thats it in a nutshell. There are some people who have specialized tanks with very low stocking levels of both fish and corals that can push the window between water changes and use supplements to maintain things like alkalinity, calcium, magnesium, iodine etc.
The problem with that is you need to test so much and have a very throrough understanding of water chemistry to accuratly dose the tank and even in doing that it can be a major balancing act.
Or you can do water changes regularly using a quality reef salt that has everything added in the exact balances your tank needs. Not only is your tank healthier but its not any more expensive then test kits and supplements and its a hell of a lot easier.
Reefing isn't new. There is very little new technology even. After 5 decades of reef keeping whats out there has all been tried. Pick up a reef book from the 70's , 80's , 90's to current and the one thing that hasn't changed is the recomendation of 10% per week or 20% per 2 weeks. Stick with that and it will serve you well.

 

[burntricer]

really Al? that would probably explain why im fighting huge amounts of algae after i removed my sand bed (had to change tanks)

 

[BigAl07]

An Algae Outbreak can come from SEVERAL causes...

Algae needs 2 things:

Fuel and Fuel.... Light and some other source of fuel. It needs some of both. It can be fueled from:

• Insufficient Bio-Logical Filtration
• To much bio-load
• Over Feeding
• Feeding wrong food
• Food is "bound" with preservatives (preservatives = Rocket Fuel for Algae)
• Less than stellar Source Water
• Lack of water changes leading to build up of contaminants in tank
• Excessive "Natural" lighting (sunlight striking the tank boosting the algae)
• Old/Faulty lights that have "shifted" into a light spectrum more favorable to the aglae

It could come from any of the above, ALL of the above or a combination of the above.

 

[El Duderinho]

ok that makes perfect sense and it's what I already suspected. Thanks for the answers!!

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

+1 to the good advise above....

I can say 1st hand, doing 10-15% water changes every week, is a "real key" for my rsm 130D, healthy coral, healthy fish & no algae...

 

[miaskies]

I think that if you have a lot of fish, then you need to do water changes more frequently. Personally, I have a 55 gallon reef with about 60 pounds of live rock and about 10 species of coral and 1 small fish, so water changes all the time are not necessary for me. I have t-5 lighting and everything seems to be doing well. I have a standard hang on the back filter for up to 75 gallons with carbon inserts and foam. I have not done a water change in over 2 months.Keep in mind that when i set up the tank I let it mature with 1 piece of live rock for over a month before I added anything else. My tank is about a year old now.When you first establish a tank, you may need more changes in the first 6 months.
I know a lot of people would say this is a no-no, but it really depends on your preference. If you are not getting a reading for high nitrates or ammonia, I would not stress it.Now if you notice any smell coming from the water or a build up of yucky algae, you are over due for a water change. Personally, I find that if you have a good amount of live rock and coral, water changes are not necessary all the time. I still do water changes as needed, but I have had excellent coral growth with things the way they are. Still keep in mind that a system with a lot of fish and feeding may require a lot more water changes.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

Really, blanket questions like these are quite controversial. There isn't any one answer because every tank is different, and so are it's needs. A man with low stock levels can get away with very few water changes and can truthfully say that they're not necessary, but if you have a huge mixed reef with tons of hard corals and fish, there's no way you could replicate the low stock level's water change schedule. It's better to realize why we do water changes before asking if they're necessary.

One reason is for nutrient/nitrate export. It's hard to get rid of nitrates and for some systems, water changes are the easiest way. Even with refugiums, nitrate export can be too great a task for natural methods alone.

Another reason is to correct chemical imbalances. Supplementing is useful if you rapidly deplete things like calcium, but if something gets out of whack (extra high/low Ca, dKH, etc), sometimes the only way to correct it is with water changes.

Lastly, if you use a high quality salt mix, sometimes you can get away without supplementing at all so long as you do frequent water changes.

So, to sum it all up, yes, you can get away with less water changes if you have a good way to get rid of nitrates, you have low stock levels, and you have low mineral needs. However, even though water changes might seem like a hassle, in reality, they are an easy way to boost mineral levels, get rid of excess nutrients, and correct oddities in water chemistry. I think it would be much more difficult to try to run a system with minimal water changes than to just take the time to do them regularly.

 

[MrPex]

Technically, no, you don't ever HAVE to do a water change if you find a way to supplement depleted chemistry and do all the proper filtration. Look at the ocean- when was the last time you saw a WC going on there?

Seriously, it's impossible for tankers to COMPLETELY keep the water where it needs to be ALL the time. Some tanks need more frequent changes, others need less. Just get to know your tank and do what it tells you it needs.

 

[Clownfish518]

I don't trust an LFS any more than the rest, but as an employee at an LFS I can say that we are not all bad, and that I don't agree with the blanket statements. Most LFS are about turns. With us the health of the animals comes first.

As far as water changes, I do about 25% a week on my tanks. Yes, you could figure out a routine to add supplements, but in the long run salt is cheaper and adds everything in the proper ratios. If you do a lot of changes the animals adjust. A 25-50% change does not cause any stress to my pets.

IMO most tanks benefit from more WC.

In my store, we do WCs on the frag tanks, but not the fish tanks, which are about 4,000 gallons.

 

[BigAl07]

....Most LFS are about turns.

This is VERY true. It's business and "turns" = $$.

As far as water changes, I do about 25% a week on my tanks. Yes, you could figure out a routine to add supplements, but in the long run salt is cheaper and adds everything in the proper ratios. If you do a lot of changes the animals adjust. A 25-50% change does not cause any stress to my pets.

Excellent advice. As long as you're "matching" newly mixed SW to existing SW it's not a big "change" for them other than a breath of "Fresh Air".

IMO most tanks benefit from more WC.

I completely agree

 

[livebait]

I definately wouldn't take that advice. BigAl makes a good point about the essentials that get replaced by doing water changes, ie calcium, magnesium, iodine etc. My LFS gave me a long talk about the importance of water changes to replace used up elements. He also advised me to use a different brand of salt mix at each change because each has a different % of elements. Say for instance InstantOcean develops a mix that is higher in calcium and patents it. Then RedSea realizes they are being outsold by InstantOcean so they copy the percentages of elements in IO's mix BUT they cannot patent it because that formula is owned by InstantOcean. So what they do is bump up one of the other elements a little and wahla have thier own 'new' formula and can patent it. My LFS said that today most of the mixes on the market are good and suggested that I buy whatever was on sale and not necessarily from him, just change up the mix @ each w/c.
k I told you all that to tell you this...the same LFS guy sold me a Christmas Tree coral AND the care instructions he gave me were so wrong that I nearly killed the poor thing. It was at the point that I was going to experiment with propogating it cuz it was so far gone I'd either save it or put it out of it's misery. Researching that online and in books from the library I found out the correct care and began it immediately. The coral is rebounding and we both are happy now.
So yes take what the LFS tells you lightly and research the hell out of it before you make a decision.

 

[AndyMan]

Re: What about evaporation?

So what if your tank evaporates about 5% of it's water a week? I can empty a 5 gallon container of refil water in about 8 days in my 72 gallon. Someone told me this is a great situation since, basically dont have to do water changes just regular top ups unless my nitrates jump.

Or am I off because I am not adding the nutrients mentioned above that are part of a salt water addition?

 

[BigAl07]

Top Off water doesn't add any of the "elements" that are in the salt mix and "evaporated" water doesn't export any of the built-up nasties that we export through water changes.


"Someone" is slightly flawed in their advice giving.

Water changes are a good thing.

 

[wm23oh]

I agree with BigAl on this.

I guess one of the things you could do is look at a freshwater system that has live plants in it. Not only must we do our W/C's but we must also add other nutrients that become depleted.

Another way to look at is is imagine you are in a room with a few live plants that could keep up with demand of your Co2 but otherwise the room was sealed off from the rest of the world other than what could make it through small cracks. Would you really want your air to be that stale not to mention all the poo in the corner? Would you consider this to be healthy?

And the last way I can think to look at it is their are hormones released from the fish, sometimes chemical warfare agents released from the corals not to mention many nutrients that must be replenished so it's a safe bet fresh water will help remove those toxins and add nutrients (via Instant Ocean Reef Crystals for example) were used.

Only water evaporates so this will actually leave higher toxicities for the fish if not taken care of. If you wish to see an example make up a clear bowl of saltwater (or use anything you wish in place of salt) and let it evaporate. What do you end up with? Whatever it was you put in stuck to the sides of the bowl and maybe an algae issue.