Ultra algae x

Fishdad1

Member
I read this entire thread and nowhere did I see what your pH level is.

All's you got to do is ask.

PH is steady 8.3. Back when I first go these things, November I think it was, I raised the PH to 8.5 using Kalk for about 3 weeks. No change in dino growth. PH has been known to help but usually in combination with "lights out". There are also many species observed to be unaffected by PH. I also use carbon regularly, I syphon out dinos on an HOURLY basis. And as for water changes I have tried no water changes and daily water changes. They definitely get worse with more water changes. I do use a filter sock, I use 4 in fact. I change them out every other day.

Sewage run off is a theory but is by no means endemic since the first recorded incident was in Canada in the 1700's... The following is from wikipedia

Causes

The occurrence of red tides in some locations appears to be entirely natural (algal blooms are a seasonal occurrence resulting from coastal upwelling, a natural result of the movement of certain ocean currents)[12][13] while in others they appear to be a result of increased nutrient loading from human activities.[14] The growth of marine phytoplankton is generally limited by the availability of nitrates and phosphates, which can be abundant in agricultural run-off as well as coastal upwelling zones. Coastal water pollution produced by humans and systematic increase in sea water temperature have also been implicated as contributing factors in red tides[citation needed]. Other factors such as iron-rich dust influx from large desert areas such as the Saharan desert are thought to play a major role in causing red tides.[15] Some algal blooms on the Pacific coast have also been linked to occurrences of large-scale climatic oscillations such as El Niño events. While red tides in the Gulf of Mexico have been occurring since the time of early explorers such as Cabeza de Vaca,[16] it is unclear what initiates these blooms and how large a role anthropogenic and natural factors play in their development. It is also debated whether the apparent increase in frequency and severity of algal blooms in various parts of the world is in fact a real increase or is due to increased observation effort and advances in species identification methods.[17][18]

I wish it were as simple as sewer run off b/c then the task of finding a reliable limiting factor would probably have already been discovered, along with specific tank parameters that inhibit their growth. Problem is you can find anecdotal evidence of dino blooms from just about every style of SW tanks. However LNS are definitely more inclined to allow them to grow.
 

Fishdad1

Member
Several times you've referred to dinoflagellates as algae. (So did the Marine Biologist that I spoke to who informed me that the photosynthetic strains can be considered "algae") They are actually protists. I assume this is just a slip since you state you have studied them extensively. (as extensively as someone with a job and 3 kids can do with the internet) Dinos in aquaria most often encyst in detritus in the substrate. Blowing them around with a turkey baster is counterproductive. (not if you catch them in a filter sock) Syphon them out while they are in full bloom and they will help you to remove them along with the detritus that is fueling their reproduction. (I do that many times a day) Full bloom is the middle of the light cycle. During the later part of the light cycle they are actually encysting and reproducing. (I can't explain it but they are definitely more vulnerable at night)

It is also a misconception the dinos cause the red in red tide. Red tide is caused by pollution in coastal saltwater. The red color actually comes from an alga that blooms along with the fish-killing dinoflagellates in those unnaturally enriched waters.

Not sure, but I'm sensing some tension in your replies. I appreciate your insight and obvious wealth of knowledge on this issue but you have yet to offer any real advice on how to tackle these things. You did mention the PH method, did that work for you when you had dinos? Because it sure as heck didn't work for me.
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
Well, I read the Wikipedia comment and I agree with a whole lot of it; and some I question.
You'll notice a common cause of these blooms; when nutrient rich land or desert dust is adsorbed either in upwelling seas or deposited by storms or by humans - that's describing runoff and pollution - do you agree?
So, the first part of the article states where the excess nutrients come from that cause the blooms. Then the second part of the article states - "in is unclear what initiates these blooms". What?, make up your mind.

I was a Marine Biologist that studied this extensively (UNC Greensboro). Also worked with the NOAA. Water was my specialty. I'm the one who said whether you could collect clams, oysters, and scallops and monitored the water quality. Worked with Marine Fisheries; they're the ones who posted the signs and enforced it.

That was way off subject, sorry.

So, we can come to the conclusion that the nutrients need to be limited that supply it's growth and reproduction.

We can also come to the conclusion that detritus is the number one suspect in dino growth in aquaria.

One way to reduce the nutrients available to the dinos for growth is to have other organisms, more capable or multicellular organisms to compete with it for nutrients. Dinos are single-celled. Which would be micro and macro algae.

So we need to encourage the growth of algae and at the same time reduce the amount of dinoflagellates. So, we can conclude from that that an algaecide would also be counterproductive.

There's an old phrase that was coined by Anthony Calfo, "The solution to pollution is dilution.

What would I do in your shoes? I'd get a 3/8" hard tube inserted into a 1/2" I.D. clear tubing and I'd syphon the dinos out, as close to the middle of the light cycle as I can, everyday. A 5 gal bucket every day until I whipped it. It'll take two or three weeks until the unicellular algae can again be dominant like it is intended to be. I would not blow it around as they will concentrate on the areas where the most nutrients are - the places detritus collects. They will actually help you to clean your tank. That's a bright side to all this.

I don't know what the temp is in your tank? A lower temp will also slow it down. Reduce the temp to 74 degrees, 1/2 - 1 degree a day until you get it under control.

Worked all day - just got home - Monday is always my least favorite day of the week no matter how optimistic I try to be.
 

slfcaptain

Active Member
Mike, assuming bottled benificial bacteria are effective (they are alive and can grow), could that be used effectively in conjunction with what you prescribed above? The tank has an imbalance and the dinos have the upper hand. As they are removed and hopefully lose their advantage would it not be helpful to add BB to supplant the dinos? Or do you not put much stock in the bottle BB?


steve
 

Fishdad1

Member
Thanks Mike, I'm absolutely willing to give that a shot. My tank is a steady 80, btw. So I'll ditch the H202 and syphon out 5 gallons every day. 3 questions...

1) What you say about the nutrients in the detritus makes sense, and they do congregate on the substrate, but why do they so aggressively attack my gorgonian? Its like a magnet.
2) Do you think carbon, gfo or biopellets help or hurt the dino situation?
3) EDIT: Slfcaptain just asked my third question.

Thanks Mike, really appreciate it. Like I've said, there isn't much information to go on when it comes to battling these other than anecdotal accounts. Sorry if I was a bit testy earlier but I have inquired about dinos on a number of forums and all to often I'm hit with "you don't do enough water changes" or "that's just cyano". It gets frustrating.
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
I'm really not a big fan of anything in the bottle. (sorry, maybe I'm wrong?) Introducing species like soft corals or macroalgae would speed up the competition. A bunch of Kenyan Trees would be good.

I was actually trying to politely state that introducing an algaecide was the opposite of what was needed to be done.

Here's a quote from "Conscientious Marine Aquarist about dinoflagellates, "sometimes a nuisance but mostly beneficial in terms of their nutrient cycling, oxygen production, and competition with less desirable forms" and "they rarely cause problems in marine aquariums". I'm sure Fishdad doesn't think that right now.

The oxygen producing part is when they are reproducing. When I look at one of those air bubbles I think, how may million new dinos are in that bubble. This is why you can whip it much quicker if you don't blow it around. It will concentrate in specific areas and if you get it in full bloom - before they encyst - you can eradicate it much quicker. The patches will get less each day.
 

Fishdad1

Member
Here's a quote from "Conscientious Marine Aquarist about dinoflagellates, "sometimes a nuisance but mostly beneficial in terms of their nutrient cycling, oxygen production, and competition with less desirable forms" and "they rarely cause problems in marine aquariums". I'm sure Fishdad doesn't think that right now.

No I don't.
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
Carbon is absolutely beneficial right now. I'm so glad you asked about GFO - it is also counterproductive right now - you want to grow algae. You'll be changing so much water, forget about all that right now. Would you rather spend 45.00 on a bucket of salt or tear down your aquarium and start over?

I would go so far as to state that a major cause of dino plague is caused by eliminating algae growth too much. As you yourself have stated about the ULNS's and getting your water "too clean." You eliminate one thing and another will take it's place.

Biopellets, vodka, algaecides, vinegar, H2O2 are your enemies right now. Hydrogen Peroxide is one of the best algaecides there is.
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
In midnight language - Do you know how the red tide blooms go away? Colder weather, rain, and when the algae production overcomes the dinoflagellate production.
 

Fishdad1

Member
I think the theory makes sense. The one thing I have never understood is how bacteria can stay alive in a bottle on a shelf? I've often wondered the same thing about "live sand".
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
Actually, I'm a big fan of live sand for new aquariums. I bought dry sand for adding to an existing tank. Every time I have used live sand I had lots of clams hatch.
 

slfcaptain

Active Member
Where did you get live sand? I dont think my LFS sells live sand other than the stuff in a plastic bag.

steve
 

Fishdad1

Member
I think that's what what MJ is talking about. Its just amazing to me that stuff can survive in a plastic bag.
 

Fishdad1

Member
Yup cured live rock... I added a piece today. Also putting serious consideration into removing the sand bed.
 
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