RSM 250 - Maximum number of fish and why ?

Roy Page

Active Member
We are new to the hobby and have a new RSM C-250.
Whilst we wish to develop the corals in our aquarium, we really like to see many fish and find them truly fascinating.

It seems that many on this forum have maybe 5, 6 or 7 fish in their RSM 250's staying with a rule of "inches per gallon" which I don't truly understand.
Mark and I have bantered on this subject as we both like to watch the fish and the way they interact together.

So by all account I am overstocked with 11 fish which includes 4 Blue Chromis.
Our inexperienced take is as follows:-

"If you test weekly and find that your Ammonia, Nitrite and Nitrate are all at zero then your system is handling the bio load and you are not overstocked"

Yes, I know that fish grow and the bio load will increase.
Also, I think that as the corals grow and spread, the surface area of the Live Rock will decrease taking away some area for nitryfting bacterial to populate, thereby, reducing the size of this part of the filtration system.

I would like those with more experience to explain why they limit the number of fish to a low level.

Thanks

Roy
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
Roy a part of how many feel on this subject... it is like asking if your back yard is say 150 feet by 150 feet in size, how many dogs can you keep?

75 great danes may fit & if you fed them & water them daily, they may live... but then it becomes a quality of life issue.

An exact number of fish before the tanks actually crashes because the LR is overloaded, is dependent on a lot of things, like dedications to wc, frequencies of them, same with chemical filtration media, etc... husbandry skills ...

But you will always get a mix of answers on this question... I have a small yellow tang in my 65 gallon RSM 250, some believe a tang should never be in a tank this size (not even one) as on a reef tangs may swim several miles a day grazing - where a clown may only venture a few yards...

Hope something here helps... it's more than just what can fit in the tank before a crash because of the overload on ammonia from feeding & fish waste ... that many add into this equation when you see recommendations.

See what others think...
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Roy,

So many other factors come into play, beyond just the "inch per gallon" silliness.

Primary concern should be - are the tank inhabitants compatible with each other? Stress is a very big deal to marine fish and will significantly impact their lifespan and your (and their) enjoyment of your tank. Too many fish cause territorial or aggression issues, which lead to stress, which leads to dead fish. And so on.

Some fish are not reef safe. Some are. If you intend to have coral then they should be reef compatible, or some of your fish may eat your coral. Or some may eat other tank inhabitants (inverts) or be eaten by other tank inhabitants.

The needs, habits and personalities can be highly different even between the same families or types of fish. For example - I keep a butterfly fish in my RSM250 that is also a reef tank. Butterflyfish eat coral. Except for one specific family of butterflyfish of which there are four members. Mine - a burgess butterflyfish, is the smaller one of the four and even then the RSM250 barely meets the minimum tank requirements. The burgess is still reef compatible with caution and he has snacked on some coral on occasion. So I feed heavily to keep that in check. My nitrates are not, and never will be, zero as a result. A choice that I had to make when choosing that fish for my tank.

I also keep a tang - a yellow eye kole tang. Again one of the smallest tangs, with a very different personality (very docile) when compared to other tangs. The tank is once again at the minimum recommended size for the fish. (The tang police are now going to be knocking at my door). I push it even further having the burgess and the tang in the same tank, as they are similar in size. Both were introduced to the tank at the same time to try to help minimize thus is issue, and I had a plan going into the decision on who would stay and who would go if they did not get along at any point.

Sort of a long way to say - my recommendation is to be highly selective in what and how you stock your tank. Research, then research, and research again. Try to avoid the impulse purchase of a fish. And quarantine any new arrival.

The surface area of your live rock is only part of the population of nitrifying bacteria. Top quality live rock is highly porous and houses a tremendous amount of the biological filtration inside the rock in addition to what is on the surface. It's why some live rock is very expensive and some is still expensive but half or a third of the cost.

I've never kept chromis, but unfortunately I do not think you will have four for too long. Also, depending on what those 11 fish are, you may find that population self-selects down to a more tank size appropriate number over time. It just may not be the fish that you want that you end up with long term.

Hopefully this is helpful.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I'm not in a spot where this is a concern of mine yet, but one if the things I definitely under researched is how many fish are appropriate for a reef tank. I like fish. A lot. Having only 6 or 7 really is less that what I'd like to do as well. I'm trying to see how I feel as I grow to into it, but to me it's a definite downside to a reef tank. I watch Marks thread with great interest on this point.
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
I've never kept chromis, but unfortunately I do not think you will have four for too long.

Why do you say this? Because chromis are hard to keep in that size group? Because of the 11 fish overall? Something else?

I'm going to be letting my niece pick my next fish in 2 weeks and trying to learn all I can. I don't see anything on liveaquaria that indicates a group of chromis are inherently a problem (in fact it implies a small school is cool), so trying to understand what the risks are.

EDIT: Never mind, I think Roy answered this question for me.
 
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Danreef

Well-Known Member
The provided recommendations are excellent.

You only will define what you want and unfortunately you will learn by losing fish and then you will remember very well those recommendation when the most beautiful and expansive fish is the one being eaten by your CUC. You only need 1 or 2 extra fish that brakes the equilibrium and guess what....Ich or velvet or..... and you will start to lose some or even all the fish depending on how much stressed they were.

I have 10 now, but I already lost 2. YES !!!!!!! I did it, I went over the limit. The 2 more stressed and weak had Ich and passed away.

I have now the Yellow tang (biggest), a medium and a small wrasse, 2 clowns (small, medium), an angel medium size (like the flame angel but with blue) and the rest small size (like damsel size). They are OK, I can see some stress from time to time. Marine fish are very Territorial. But they are OK. And I will NOT ADD one extra fish to my tank, because it will be for a disaster.
 

Roy Page

Active Member
Thanks for all the replies so far, with some good points and reasoning !

Roy,

So many other factors come into play, beyond just the "inch per gallon" silliness.

Primary concern should be - are the tank inhabitants compatible with each other? Stress is a very big deal to marine fish and will significantly impact their lifespan and your (and their) enjoyment of your tank. Too many fish cause territorial or aggression issues, which lead to stress, which leads to dead fish. And so on.

Some fish are not reef safe. Some are. If you intend to have coral then they should be reef compatible, or some of your fish may eat your coral. Or some may eat other tank inhabitants (inverts) or be eaten by other tank inhabitants.

The needs, habits and personalities can be highly different even between the same families or types of fish. For example - I keep a butterfly fish in my RSM250 that is also a reef tank. Butterflyfish eat coral. Except for one specific family of butterflyfish of which there are four members. Mine - a burgess butterflyfish, is the smaller one of the four and even then the RSM250 barely meets the minimum tank requirements. The burgess is still reef compatible with caution and he has snacked on some coral on occasion. So I feed heavily to keep that in check. My nitrates are not, and never will be, zero as a result. A choice that I had to make when choosing that fish for my tank.

I also keep a tang - a yellow eye kole tang. Again one of the smallest tangs, with a very different personality (very docile) when compared to other tangs. The tank is once again at the minimum recommended size for the fish. (The tang police are now going to be knocking at my door). I push it even further having the burgess and the tang in the same tank, as they are similar in size. Both were introduced to the tank at the same time to try to help minimize thus is issue, and I had a plan going into the decision on who would stay and who would go if they did not get along at any point.

Sort of a long way to say - my recommendation is to be highly selective in what and how you stock your tank. Research, then research, and research again. Try to avoid the impulse purchase of a fish. And quarantine any new arrival.

The surface area of your live rock is only part of the population of nitrifying bacteria. Top quality live rock is highly porous and houses a tremendous amount of the biological filtration inside the rock in addition to what is on the surface. It's why some live rock is very expensive and some is still expensive but half or a third of the cost.

I've never kept chromis, but unfortunately I do not think you will have four for too long. Also, depending on what those 11 fish are, you may find that population self-selects down to a more tank size appropriate number over time. It just may not be the fish that you want that you end up with long term.

Hopefully this is helpful.

Thanks New, I agree with many of your points, although the experience here is very lacking.

All the fish are reef safe as far as we could establish before buying them.

Our fish currently are as follows and given in the order they went into the display tank.

Pair of Clowns
Male Blue Damsel
Dottyback
Blue Tang
Yellow Tang
Royal Gramma
4 Blue Chromis

We introduced each fish one at a time and took care to watch how each got on with and reacted to each other.
The Male Blue Damsel was the 3rd fish and we worried about him accepting the next fish in the tank.

Ready to react we then introduced the Blue Tang, but no issues at all, except for a bit of chasing around for the first few minutes.
The Yellow Tang was the next one to go in. No reaction from any of the resident fish except from the rock algae which had a collective heart attack ..... HeHe
Then the Royal Gramma went in and found his own cave in a few minutes.

Certainly the Dottyback and the Royal Gramma are not best pals but apart from the Gramma showing the size of his mouth they seem to be ok.
Last were the 4 Blue Chromis, we wanted these and that number so they would shoal together.

Reading about a dominant Chromis killing his like, I operated a more defined strategy here.
They were in the QT together for 3 weeks, then they went all together into the DT.
Because of their size I thought the other fish would certainly have a go at them and that happened immediately.
The Clowns were the worst followed by the Damsel and the Blue Tang. No reaction from other fish.
They were chased around, on and off, for about 4/5 days, but they are so quick no harm came to them and they always swam away as a shoal.
The situation is pretty settled and I don't see any dominant activity among them.
They feed out of my fingers with the other fish, they spend the night as a group near the left pump outlet.
Maybe the scene will change but as I watch them right now they are in a shoal all swimming gently against the MP40 current flow.

So what are symptoms of a fish being stressed that we should look out for which may not be apparent to newbies in this hobby ? [We are only just 86 days into this great adventure]

Roy

Here is a photo of our C-250 taken this evening:-

d86_1.jpg
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
Pat - to help answer your question on the chromis. I have never kept chromis so I would defer to others on this. But - there are all different types of chromis. Some are notoriously more aggressive than others, particularly if you end up with more than one male chromis in the tank. Most reefers that I know are unable to keep a school of chromis long term unless they are in a very large tank, and a RSM250 is not a large tank IMHO.

Roy - congrats on a very nice tank so far!

However, you are going to have some issues moving forward, particularly with a blue tang. I am assuming that you are referring to a blue hippo tang (although a powder blue has similar issues). Also, let me preface all of this by saying I am not passing any judgement on your decisions, just going to relay some concerns you are going to have to face. And more importantly - I applaud you for putting this out there.

Blue tangs require way, way more space than these tanks provide. As a baby, it will be fine for a while. But within a year, you are going to likely have to re-home the blue tang. They are incredible swimmers and get very, very large at maturity. With a smaller tank, you will inhibit his growth externally, but his internal organs will continue to grow as if he was larger causing health issues. Please google "hole in the head" disease for example. Also, blue hippos are notorious for carrying marine ich (laymans term as it's not really ich, but I digress...,). They can fight it off and then it will show up again. He will become aggressive for food and territory as he gets bigger as well to the detriment of your other fish.

I speak from personal experience. I bought my first tank used - it was a Nanocube and it came with a clown and a blue hippo (yup nemo and dory........). I have children. The blue hippo was 3 inches and already had hole in the head. Ultimately this became a lesson on responsibility for my kids, just after the tears of mean dad giving away the hippo to a much, much larger tank.

You recognize the issue with the dotty back and the royal gramma already.

The blue damsel. They are mean and territorial SOB's. If it were me, I would get him out right away. Also - clowns are part of the damsel family. Just take that into consideration over time.

I am by no means an "expert". Just a fellow reefer who has gone through some challenges myself and would rather pass along my experiences as a consideration to help you make your own decisions.

And again - great looking tank and congrats on your success so far!
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
Actually, another dumb question on this topic.

It's actually been years since I did freshwater fish and I don't really remember my overcrowding rules for those. But, I seem to recall I had many more fish per gallon than we are talking about here on reef tanks.

Is it the case that if my tank were fish only, I'd still have the size issues. In other words, in an RSM 250 with no live rock and no corals, are we still talking about a limit of 7ish fish in most people's view (and I realize the 7 varies depending on type of fish etc.).

So, I guess I'm asking is this a function of saltwater fish and their typical characteristics or does the "reef" part of the aquarium take up space/otherwise limit the the number.

According to all the explanations I'm seeing about why the number of fish is limited, I don't see any that are reef specific (except occasionally the fish that may nibble on corals). Most just seem to have to do with the temperament and space needs of saltwater fish.
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
You are correct that the "general rule of thumb" for FW fish per gallon is WAY more than SW. Keep in mind that due to the oceans being so extremely VAST and expansive nothing big happens quick in the ocean. For this reason the animals in the ocean are not adapted to handle changes and or crowding. Over crowding in a tank will cause parameter/health issues which our salty friends are not able to handle and will meet their early demise because of this.

Some FW fish can handle extreme climate changes including temp swings, water parameter swings and even to an extreme can handle lack of water completely (walking catfish).
 

Roy Page

Active Member
Pat - to help answer your question on the chromis. I have never kept chromis so I would defer to others on this. But - there are all different types of chromis. Some are notoriously more aggressive than others, particularly if you end up with more than one male chromis in the tank. Most reefers that I know are unable to keep a school of chromis long term unless they are in a very large tank, and a RSM250 is not a large tank IMHO.

Roy - congrats on a very nice tank so far!

However, you are going to have some issues moving forward, particularly with a blue tang. I am assuming that you are referring to a blue hippo tang (although a powder blue has similar issues). Also, let me preface all of this by saying I am not passing any judgement on your decisions, just going to relay some concerns you are going to have to face. And more importantly - I applaud you for putting this out there.

Blue tangs require way, way more space than these tanks provide. As a baby, it will be fine for a while. But within a year, you are going to likely have to re-home the blue tang. They are incredible swimmers and get very, very large at maturity. With a smaller tank, you will inhibit his growth externally, but his internal organs will continue to grow as if he was larger causing health issues. Please google "hole in the head" disease for example. Also, blue hippos are notorious for carrying marine ich (laymans term as it's not really ich, but I digress...,). They can fight it off and then it will show up again. He will become aggressive for food and territory as he gets bigger as well to the detriment of your other fish.

I speak from personal experience. I bought my first tank used - it was a Nanocube and it came with a clown and a blue hippo (yup nemo and dory........). I have children. The blue hippo was 3 inches and already had hole in the head. Ultimately this became a lesson on responsibility for my kids, just after the tears of mean dad giving away the hippo to a much, much larger tank.

You recognize the issue with the dotty back and the royal gramma already.

The blue damsel. They are mean and territorial SOB's. If it were me, I would get him out right away. Also - clowns are part of the damsel family. Just take that into consideration over time.

I am by no means an "expert". Just a fellow reefer who has gone through some challenges myself and would rather pass along my experiences as a consideration to help you make your own decisions.

And again - great looking tank and congrats on your success so far!

I appreciate the input above and recognize the spirit in which all advice is given.

Our Male Blue Damsel does not appear to me to be either mean or territorial and with the Yellow Tang is a favorite fish.
The Blue Hippo Tango will grow and the plan is to move him on to a larger home at the appropriate time.
I did not know that their organs can grow without the body outer size increasing.

With the Chromis, I just had an exchange with LiveAquaria and they have no specific comments other than what they describe on their website.

Roy
 

Pat24601

Well-Known Member
So, what's a short list of "good" fish to add to our tank? I have the obligatory two clowns. My fear is my LFS has a ton of clowns and tangs, but I didn't see a lot of diversity from there for my size tank. I think they cater mostly to larger tanks. When my 12 year old niece comes next week to help me pick out fish, I don't want to walk out with a mistake.

I like the same things as everyone else. Cool colors, good temperment, etc.
 

newo11

Well-Known Member
So, what's a short list of "good" fish to add to our tank? I have the obligatory two clowns. My fear is my LFS has a ton of clowns and tangs, but I didn't see a lot of diversity from there for my size tank. I think they cater mostly to larger tanks. When my 12 year old niece comes next week to help me pick out fish, I don't want to walk out with a mistake.

I like the same things as everyone else. Cool colors, good temperment, etc.

Pat, just a suggestion, but maybe have your niece do the research for you. Live aquaria is a great online resource for example. Sustainable aquatics is another if you want tank bred options. I am sure others will chime in with suggestions as well.

One of my daughters is 13, the other 11. I had them research and pick out some options online when I was deciding on a stock list for my RSM when we upgraded. Tons of options, and if you contact your LFS in advance, most of the time they can order something in for you if their supplier has it available.

With only two clowns, you have tons of options. Yasha goby, purple fire fish, barnacle blennies, a dwarf angel (only one though, and I have had very good luck with an African Flameback dwarf angel if you are looking for a suggestion in this category), a cardinal, certain anthias or wrasse (flasher wrasse for example) just to name a few that have a lot of color, are peaceful for the most part, thrive in different areas of the tank, and are active in their own way. Obviously you can't do all but you may be surprised at what you can do if you are selective and research in advance. Good luck
 

Mark9

Has been struck by the ban stick
Golden assessor, firefish, royal gramma, chromis are all relatively peaceful and easy.
The purple firefish are really nice looking.
Hawkfish and gobies too.
 

monozok

New Member
I like nanoreefing4fun's response, because all aquarists should feel morally responsible for the well-being of the animals they forcibly take into their care, but the example of dogs in a yard also illustrates the real issue.

Well-being is subjective. A single dog left unrestricted can roam for miles, yet in my personal judgement, the exact same dog can be a happy house dog with many housemates. Its lifestyle is totally changed, possibly for the better.

My point is that this is a gray area. We are morally obligated to learn as much as we can about the physiology and behavior of the fish we want, in its natural habitat and in captivity. If we judge the risk reasonable, then we give it a shot and hope it reacts as expected. If not, then it's up to us to adapt our plans.

Simple, but oh so difficult.
 

Roy Page

Active Member
I like nanoreefing4fun's response, because all aquarists should feel morally responsible for the well-being of the animals they forcibly take into their care, but the example of dogs in a yard also illustrates the real issue.

Well-being is subjective. A single dog left unrestricted can roam for miles, yet in my personal judgement, the exact same dog can be a happy house dog with many housemates. Its lifestyle is totally changed, possibly for the better.

My point is that this is a gray area. We are morally obligated to learn as much as we can about the physiology and behavior of the fish we want, in its natural habitat and in captivity. If we judge the risk reasonable, then we give it a shot and hope it reacts as expected. If not, then it's up to us to adapt our plans.

Simple, but oh so difficult.

Monozok, thank you, that is a very good view of this subject.

Whilst we are totally new to running a reef salt water aquarium, we have much experience of keeping large size Koi Carp for many years in pristine outdoor Koi Pools.
Looking at our DT as I write this post, the lights have been out for 2 hours, the water flow is in night mode, each fish is resting in its normal night place in the tank.
We have to watch and be ready to react if needed, for now our bit of developing reef is at rest waiting the dawn of another day. Quite wonderful !

Roy
 
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