Red Sea S-650 - Dave's marine adventure

[Oxylebius]

My Calcium and Magnesium always seem to be fine just Alk (why don't we say Carbonate?) is a bit borderline.

Ooo - Good question. Alkalinity is a term used to describe the buffer capacity of the liquid. When you refer to high alkalinity or low alkalinity, you are referring to the liquids ability to neutralize acids. Materials that affect alkalinity are buffers and these include a variety of things like carbonate, bicarbonate, hydroxides and other items. We measure alkalinity to determine if we need to alter it by adding a buffer. I use soda ash (sodium carbonate) as a buffer, some use calcium hydroxide (Kalkwasser), and others may use calcium bicarbonate. There really isn't an easy way to measure carbonate and bicarbonate, so we test alkalinity as a substitute measure for bicarbonate and carbonate.

I came across an article a while back on advanced aquarist that touched on this. I will see if I can find it and post it here for you.

EDIT: found the article here:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/2002/2/chemistry
Halfway down the page in the, "Why is Alkalinity Important?" section will help address your question.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Dave - I know stress kills many fish...

What are your thoughts on the below... ? (or anyone else...)

Ich such a bummer and a fallow (fishless) tank for 8 weeks is so long...

I have never had to deal with it... but if I did, I think I would try the proven
Bounce/Transfer Method and have it whipped in only two weeks.... as the stress of QT for 8 weeks seems like a lot too... and stress is a key role in fish death...

an extract from Lee Birch below...
Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
an extracted post from Boomer ^

Multiple smaller hospital tanks is one option

Yes and with one method I learned from something I read long ago in the 70's, from Amlacher's book I call the "Bounce Method'. "Ick" can not survive without a host, so multi-tanks work. You just move the infected fish from one untreated tank to the next every 2-3 days. At the end of two-weeks there can not be any ick. And at times the ick is all gone in the first couple of days, meaning only one move or maybe only 2 moves i.e., less than a wk.

 

[DaveR11]

Ooo - Good question. Alkalinity is a term used to describe the buffer capacity of the liquid. When you refer to high alkalinity or low alkalinity, you are referring to the liquids ability to neutralize acids. Materials that affect alkalinity are buffers and these include a variety of things like carbonate, bicarbonate, hydroxides and other items. We measure alkalinity to determine if we need to alter it by adding a buffer. I use soda ash (sodium carbonate) as a buffer, others use calcium hydroxide (Kalkwasser), and others may use calcium bicarbonate. There really isn't an easy way to measure carbonate and bicarbonate, so we test alkalinity as a substitute measure for bicarbonate and carbonate.

I came across an article a while back on advanced aquarist that touched on this. I will see if I can find it and post it here for you.

I realise in a marine situation that pH is important and as we are on the alkaline side of a neutral pH we talk about buffering to maintain the pH. But in a reef context are we not generally talking as well about the availability of soluble Carbonate for coral and clam skeletons. Aren't we testing for the ions? So why not call it a carbonate/bicarbonate test instead of alkalinity....? Are you adding sodium carbonate to buffer your pH or to replenish lost carbonate in your water due to the action of your corals? Maybe it is a question of semantics.... Or maybe I'm missing something....

 

[DaveR11]

Dave - I know stress kills many fish...

What are your thoughts on the below... ? (or anyone else...)

Ich such a bummer and a fallow (fishless) tank for 8 weeks is so long...

I have never had to deal with it... but if I did, I think I would try the proven
Bounce/Transfer Method and have it whipped in only two weeks.... as the stress of QT for 8 weeks seems like a lot too... and stress is a key role in fish death...

an extract from Lee Birch below...
Transfer method - Fish is moved from tank to tank to separate the fish from the cysts that fall off and the free-swimming stages of the parasite. Two hospital tanks are needed to perform this treatment. The fish is stressed by having to keep moving it between these hospital tanks.

Marine Ich - Myths and Facts
an extracted post from Boomer ^

Multiple smaller hospital tanks is one option

Yes and with one method I learned from something I read long ago in the 70's, from Amlacher's book I call the "Bounce Method'. "Ick" can not survive without a host, so multi-tanks work. You just move the infected fish from one untreated tank to the next every 2-3 days. At the end of two-weeks there can not be any ick. And at times the ick is all gone in the first couple of days, meaning only one move or maybe only 2 moves i.e., less than a wk.

Hi Glenn, that sounds like an elegant solution but not practical for me. I have an old 5ft tank which I'm using as the hospital tank and I have an (at least) 5 days per week job. So I don't have the room or the tanks for a transfer method and I would need to be making saltwater and cleaning tanks every two days which unfortunately is not practical for me. I presume I would still need to leave the DT fallow for 8 weeks as well as I couldn't clean it out to remove the cysts....

What I should have done is quarantined the fish in the first place....

Lost one of the clowns today and the yellow tang is not eating....

 

[Oxylebius]

It's painful. Have you soaked nori in garlic. Seriously, mash up garlic, get some juices on the nori and put it by the tang. Garlic works wonders to entice fish to eat. If it doesn't work, at least you tried everything you could.

 

[DaveR11]

It's painful. Have you soaked nori in garlic. Seriously, mash up garlic, get some juices on the nori and put it by the tang. Garlic works wonders to entice fish to eat. If it doesn't work, at least you tried everything you could.

Thanks @Oxylebius. The nori I have is treated with garlic - it would kill Dracula at 100 meters.... Will get some fresh garlic and try that as well.

 

[Oxylebius]

Okay. It was a thought I had. I had used it to get new fish in QT to eat, and so thought it would help in your case as well.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

so sorry to hear you have lost more fish... and I understand what you are saying with work, another tank & wcs

I presume I would still need to leave the DT fallow for 8 weeks as well as I couldn't clean it out to remove the cysts....

someone correct me if I am wrong... but I read Lee's & Boomers post to say... 2 weeks & your done... as the DT (display tank) would not have a host for 2 week either & be free of the ich

@Oxylebius Sue (or anyone that know...) is this right? ^ or can LR or corals be a host?

 

[chingsterUK]

Hi Glenn, that sounds like an elegant solution but not practical for me. I have an old 5ft tank which I'm using as the hospital tank and I have an (at least) 5 days per week job. So I don't have the room or the tanks for a transfer method and I would need to be making saltwater and cleaning tanks every two days which unfortunately is not practical for me. I presume I would still need to leave the DT fallow for 8 weeks as well as I couldn't clean it out to remove the cysts....

What I should have done is quarantined the fish in the first place....

Lost one of the clowns today and the yellow tang is not eating....

Hi Dave, I'm based in Woodbridge so not too far from you. I had some success with Polyp Lab Medic when our Regal had some spot. Might be worth a try?

 

[Oxylebius]

The ich life cycle can last a long while. Keeping the DT free of fish for at least 8 weeks will still need to be done. The fish may be ich free in the QTs with the transfer method, but the DT will still have the parasite reproducing in it.

This University of Florida paper on marine ich is very informative: http://edis.ifas.ufl.edu/fa164

The immunity part I still question. I understand how immunity work with viruses and diseases. But Ich is a parasite. How can a creature become immune to a parasite. Seems anytime contact is made, the parasite can attach.

Have you determined not to do a hypo dip (that I mentioned on the previous page). Do you think the fish is too weak to handle it?

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

So in the DT once the fish are out... what is hosting them?

"Ick can not survive without a host" trying to get the transfer method in my brain and understand how...

"At the end of two-weeks there can not be any ick. And at times the ick is all gone in the first couple of days, meaning only one move or maybe only 2 moves i.e., less than a wk."

If the ick killed this way... in 2 weeks... if it is not also gone from the DT, what do people do, wait 6 more weeks... with ich free fish... for the DT to clear?

I am 1st to amit... I may be missing something ... always learning

 

[Oxylebius]

Nothing is hosting them in the DT, but the tomonts are waiting on the sand and rocks waiting to hatch. The lifecycle of the parasite is important to understand when determining length of time to let the DT go fishless.

From the second article linked below:
"Cryptocaryon irritans has a direct four-phase life cycle (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). It does not have an intermediate host (i.e. snail, etc.) unlike some other fish parasites. The quadriphasic life cycle consists of both parasitic and off-host stages. These include the theront, protomont, tomont and trophont stages. The life cycle is usually 1 to 2 weeks at 24-27C (Colorni, 1992). The time frame of the life cycle can vary slightly between different isolates or variants of Cryptocaryon irritans (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). No dormant stage has been found in any study of its life cycle to date. However, Cryptocaryon irritans tomonts have an asynchronous excystment (hatching) time of 3 to 28 days (Colorni, 1985). The longest recorded period of time for tomonts to hatch is 72 days (Colorni & Burgess, 1997). The life cycle of Cryptocaryon irritans is temperature dependent so it is highly unlikely for such an extended period to occur in a tropical aquarium."

I've seen a number of folks on forums add fish too early only to have to deal w/ich all over again. If you are already waiting 4-6 weeks, why not continue to wait a couple of additional weeks so that you can make sure ich is no longer in the tank.

References
http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-08/sp/index.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/nov2003/mini1.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/dec2003/mini2.
htm http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/jan2004/mini3.
htm http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/feb2004/mini4.htm
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/mar2004/mini5.htm

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Sue - is this part ture? Using the transfer method... and say two 20 gallon tanks (not your dt)

"At the end of two-weeks there can not be any ick. And at times the ick is all gone in the first couple of days, meaning only one move or maybe only 2 moves i.e., less than a wk."

you would be done in 1 or 2 weeks... right? but then waiting 6 more weeks for the DT to be clean... not sure why this would be a choice... rather than the other methods...

Dave just trying to help... so sad you are losing fish !!!! Will take this to another thread & not turn your tank thread into an ich discussion... sorry !!!

 

[Oxylebius]

I don't really know Glenn. Haven't heard much about the transfer method. All you need is one little tomonts that releases thousands of free swimming protozoans to have another breakout.

 

[DaveR11]

Sue - is this part ture? Using the transfer method... and say two 20 gallon tanks (not your dt)

"At the end of two-weeks there can not be any ick. And at times the ick is all gone in the first couple of days, meaning only one move or maybe only 2 moves i.e., less than a wk."

you would be done in 1 or 2 weeks... right? but then waiting 6 more weeks for the DT to be clean... not sure why this would be a choice... rather than the other methods...

Dave just trying to help... so sad you are losing fish !!!! Will take this to another thread & not turn your tank thread into an ich discussion... sorry !!!

No worries Glenn with this being in my thread. My tank has Ich so my thread is discussing it. Just glad of the knowledge and support.

 

[DaveR11]

That has been a hard week.

After finally catching the Chromis and being in a position to treat the Ich the fish have been succumbing to the disease. I'm now 3 days into the 14 days of Cupramine treatment and the remaining fish are not eating despite tempting them with their favourites..... I hope the treatment starts to kick in quickly and starts to eliminate the parasites so all the fish have to worry about is the copper in the water and the stress of being in a practically bare tank.

Back in the DT things are a little better. Seeing lots of good coral growth. I've been target feeding as I've said before and the Favites and Duncans seems to be really responding to it. I've posted photos of the war coral but here is a shot of (what I presume) are new polyps on the Duncan.



I'm seeing lots of pods darting around. Maybe because there are no fish in the tank to scare them into cover. Here are a couple.



Also really pleased with this digitata. Not quite as green as when I bought it but it seems to be growing nicely.



And finally my big Acan is growing new polyps....

 

[Oxylebius]

Very nice.

Yes, that is a new baby duncan. Pods are always a good thing. If you allow a few pieces of food (note very few) to sit on the sand overnight, the pods will eat on them all night and the population will grow (note 1 or 2 tiny pieces only). If you feed pods they will populate like all other critters. Seems your grey-ish monti digi are like mine, not very colorful. Beautiful acans.

 

[DaveR11]

Thanks Oxy.

As well as the pods in the picture (Isopod and Amphipod?) I also see what look like tiny Mysis which are far too quick to photograph.

In the absence of the fish I'm going to keep target feeding the LPS corals and the shrimp so I will leave a few bits for the pods.

The fish in the QT fed this evening so I'm keeping my fingers crossed that they are getting better after 4 days of Cupramine.

 

[Oxylebius]

I hope they eat for you.

 

[DaveR11]

I hope they eat for you.

Thanks Oxy. Just given them some food. I went out shopping today and got some different algae (more green, and red for the first time) for the yellow tang and he has been tucking in to that. Fed them a little Mysis tonight which they all love and everyone ate something so feeling a little more optimistic. Big water change in the QT as well though I've not seen any ammonia.