really embarasing question

Jay Morris

New Member
Help please.
I have received a shipment of 40 lbs of Key Largo aquacultured LR. I divided it in 2 mixing LR and some DR I already have. I added ammonia to the water and have a 1150 gph powerhead in each barrel. Now for the dumb part. Am I curing or cycling here please?

Thanks
 

Steve L

Member
You are cycling, BUT.......

If you bought the aquacultured LR from Key Largo (meaning that arrived wet with living organisms on it) and placed it into a barrel then added ammonia to it, you might have just killed much of the beneficial organisms that made the rock alive. Any time you add liquid ammonia you are forcing a cycle to start quickly, where as if you had simply put the rock in a tank with a power head, heater and lights (and possibly a shrimp as noted in your other thread), some things in and on the rock would have survived but enough of the natural organisms would have died off to gradually start a cycle. When you have an ammonia build up due to decomposing organisms the build up is gradual and allows the beneficial bacteria population to increase and convert the ammonia to nitrite slowly, as opposed to pouring straight ammonia into the water which is like shocking a pool with chlorine to kill off almost everything living.

Not everybody will agree with me, but it's just my opinion for what it's worth.
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
If you are starting up a new tank... I would add it to my DT (Display Tank) any die off will be an ammonia source & if it has little die off, add a deli shrimp to replicate die off and be an ammonia source. One way to proceed...

I cycled my 1st tank with all uncured LR, was exactly what I wanted to do.

two good :read:

RS member prow has written a really good post below...
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...something-cycling-breaking-new-reef-tank.html

http://www.pacificeastaquaculture.com/curing_rock.asp
 

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
What are you trying to accomplish?

If this is going into a new tank then you're "Cycling" the tank also known as establishing and growing a healthy biological filtration system. The Ammonia is added to kick the bacteria into gear to simulate the bioload livestock will be putting on the system.

If you just have Live Rock stewing in the containers and you're trying to get rid of any dead/dying organisms from the rock before adding it to the display tank then you're CURING the rock. Ammonia isn't needed because the dead/dying organics from the rock will feed the bacteria. This is done outside of a Display Tank simply because it can be messy, smelly and not pretty at all.


It sounds like you're CURING Live Rock but added Ammonia. It wont hurt the CURING process but wasn't needed.
 

nanoreefing4fun

Well-Known Member
RS STAFF
one more read...

http://www.tampabaysaltwater.com/thepackage/faq.html

Frequently Asked Questions

What is "Cured Rock"?

Cured Rock is a term that came about from what has to be done to live rock that is not handled correctly.

Rock that is imported to the United States is collected in the South Pacific, usually held in a dry condition on whatever island it was collected on, sometimes exposed to the sun for hours, as it is collected and piled on the beach by native divers.

The rock is then transported in a dry condition to a holding facility, where it is packed in cardboard containers, then on to the airport where it is usually shipped to Hawaii, makes a connection, and then shipped to Los Angeles, still dry and out of the water for about four days by this time.

By this time the rock has been exposed to the air for four to five days before the wholesaler unpacks and repacks the rock for shipment to other wholesalers, stores and consumers, still in a dry condition. By this time most of the life on the rocks are dead and dying, which is why it smells so bad when it is received by the ultimate consumer.

So what do you do with dead and dying rock? It has to be "cured" or a better word for it would be "bringing dead rock back to life". "Curing" is when the wholesaler, store or hobbyist takes this rock and reintroduces it to saltwater again. The dead and dying animals on the rock take two to three weeks to complete the cycle of falling, being scraped,brushed, hosed off, before the now practically dead rock is "Cured".

It is now "cured" because all the life that was on it and died is now gone and what is left is rock with very little or no life at all, other than some coralines which may survive the process.

Rock that is handled correctly requires little or no 'curing' as the life on the rocks is still alive, as it should be when you receive it. We handle our rock correctly. When we harvest it from the ocean, it comes up out of the water, is IMMEDIATELY placed in drums full of water, transported to land under water, to our holding facility underwater, then transferred to our tanks, underwater, and then shipped to you underwater!

This results in a true LIVE ROCK, that arrives alive and stays alive in your tank. There is sometimes die off of organisms on our rock as some of the animals that survive in the wild will not in home aquariums such as certain sponges, but this die off is minimal and is controlled by making water changes as instructed in our "Package" information until the rock "cycles".

The way Live Rock is handled and shipped should be your first question when asking about live rock.

Asking live rock to stay alive and arrive ALIVE after it has been out of the water for a week or longer is like asking a human to go sit underwater for a week with no air, you would not look or smell so good after a week, it is the same with LIVE ROCK, it has to be harvested, handled and shipped correctly to be ALIVE. We at Tampa Bay Saltwater take pride in delivering quality LIVE ROCK shipped to you UNDERWATER!

How come the prices of The Package are so low, compared to your regular prices?

Well we have found out over the years that happy customers and happy reef tanks are a benefit to all of us. You end up with a nice stable and inexpensive reef tank, we end up with a happy customer, it's a win-win situation. If you're happy, you will be calling us back, plus it is good for the hobby to have successful reef tank owners, who will continue to buy corals and livestock for their tank.

Will I get good rock with The Package?

Yes the Package is made up of live rock (really live rock!).

What kind of rock is it?

It is aquacultured rock from our five acre lease site with over four million pounds under production in the Gulf of Mexico, and from our aquaculture site off of Key Largo in The Florida Keys.

Is your live rock dense? What is its porosity?

Our rock unlike Fiji which is not rock at all, but coral skeleton which is just basically purple and devoid of life, our rock is ancient coral reef rocks. When cut in half you can see the corals, gorgonians, animals it is made up of. Plus the rock is teeming with life forms, including hard stony corals.

Do you guarantee live arrival?

Absolutely! We see to it that we have 100% customer satisfaction! We have been collecting and wholesaling saltwater animals since the seventies, have thousands of satisfied customers and intend on keeping it that way.

If I order The Package how soon will I have it?

We usually ship the day after you order, via FedEx or the airlines, weather permitting on this end and on your end. .

How do I pay for it?

We take all the major credit cards, which will save you a COD fee at the airport when you pay with certified check or money order . We accept wire transfers, and all FedEx orders must be prepaid via credit card (sorry, no FedEx COD's).

What hitchhikers might I find on the rock?

The possibilities are endless... See our pictures of organisms that some customers have found!
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
one more read...

[url removed]

Frequently Asked Questions

What is "Cured Rock"?

Cured Rock is a term that came about from what has to be done to live rock that is not handled correctly.

...


In my opinion, this article is full of half truths, and is not completely factual.

Live rock, even from Florida, is shipped damp to save shipping weight. This means that no matter what you do, there is going to be some die off. Also, your going to have organisms such as sponges on the rock, and unless you do some very special handling, you are not going to ba able to save them. You will also see othse areas die off, such as some algae.

The bottom line is that live rock you have shipped to you is going to cycle. Now in some cases, if it's going into an established tank, you may not see an ammonia spike, but it's still happening. It's just that the existing biological filtration can deal with it.

As far as asking how the live rock was handled goes, this is impossible for your LFS to know. It is also impossible for an online vendor to know, unless they personally supervise it's collection. Even if you do talk to the vendor and they claim they personally supervised it's collection, you still don't know if they are telling the truth. Take all these claims with more than "a grain of salt".
 

reefer gladness

Well-Known Member
In my opinion, this article is full of half truths, and is not completely factual.

Live rock, even from Florida, is shipped damp to save shipping weight. This means that no matter what you do, there is going to be some die off. Also, your going to have organisms such as sponges on the rock, and unless you do some very special handling, you are not going to ba able to save them. You will also see othse areas die off, such as some algae.

The bottom line is that live rock you have shipped to you is going to cycle. Now in some cases, if it's going into an established tank, you may not see an ammonia spike, but it's still happening. It's just that the existing biological filtration can deal with it.

As far as asking how the live rock was handled goes, this is impossible for your LFS to know. It is also impossible for an online vendor to know, unless they personally supervise it's collection. Even if you do talk to the vendor and they claim they personally supervised it's collection, you still don't know if they are telling the truth. Take all these claims with more than "a grain of salt".

We might be a little off-topic now but I also saw some half-truths and conflicting statements made by someone trying to sell something.

Something else that appears on that sellers website that wasn't in the post above is this: "Rock from an upland site is deposited on our five acre lease, allowed to grow for a number of years, and is then harvested for use in your reef tank. "

Consider the definition of upland 1. high land especially at some distance from the sea 2. ground elevated above the lowlands along rivers or between hills.

In other words, they quarry dry rocks locally and aquaculture off the Florida coast for a couple years.

IMO if you want all the 'stuff' that comes on rock grown in Florida this is the rock for you. If you want Pacific reef hitch-hikers get LR from an importer on the West coast because that's the port of entry for real live rock harvested from the Pacific. Shipping is by far the biggest expense so the folks nearest the port of entry don't have the added cost of shipping the rock from the port to their business.

I live minutes from a major port of entry and can buy cured Fiji premium live rock for about $1.60 per pound. I'm not in the business of selling live rock but if I was I would be MUCH more competitive than the guy who lives in the mid-west and has to pay for shipping charges from California to their home state before they mark it up again and sell to final consumer.
 

Jay Morris

New Member
You are cycling, BUT.......

If you bought the aquacultured LR from Key Largo (meaning that arrived wet with living organisms on it) and placed it into a barrel then added ammonia to it, you might have just killed much of the beneficial organisms that made the rock alive. Any time you add liquid ammonia you are forcing a cycle to start quickly, where as if you had simply put the rock in a tank with a power head, heater and lights (and possibly a shrimp as noted in your other thread), some things in and on the rock would have survived but enough of the natural organisms would have died off to gradually start a cycle. When you have an ammonia build up due to decomposing organisms the build up is gradual and allows the beneficial bacteria population to increase and convert the ammonia to nitrite slowly, as opposed to pouring straight ammonia into the water which is like shocking a pool with chlorine to kill off almost everything living.

Not everybody will agree with me, but it's just my opinion for what it's worth.
My question is in next post, Still learning the format of this forum
 

Jay Morris

New Member
I am confused again. It has been my understanding that LR feeds on Ammonia. By organisms i hope you are not speaking of the biological goodies.
 

Steve L

Member
Did the rock arrive by ground freight, dry and bleached white, or was it shipped overnight, covered with organisms and wrapped in wet newspaper?
 

moze229

Member
I am confused again. It has been my understanding that LR feeds on Ammonia. By organisms i hope you are not speaking of the biological goodies.

Not exactly,

I recommend reading about the nitrogen cycle. That will clear your understanding of what you did, and why it may not have been the best idea. It's not the end of the world though. You'll just have to let your rock 'cure' longer now. None of this is ever going to make sense until you familiarize yourself with the nitrogen cycle.

Welcome aboard, and good luck!
 

DaveK

Well-Known Member
I am confused again. It has been my understanding that LR feeds on Ammonia. By organisms i hope you are not speaking of the biological goodies.

This is Marso' rock
and is supposed to be cured already

Here is what you have going on. Live rock, because it is porous, provides a home for bacteria These bacteria do the biological filtration in a reef system by converting ammonia to nitrite to nitrate. In addition live rock is also hosting other organisms, such as sponges, algae, tube worms, and just about everything else.

When you harvest live rock from the ocean or when you ship it, some of this "flora and fauna" on the rock is going to die. This can't be helped.

If you obtain the rock form an established reef system and it's a short local trip to get it home, this die off may be minimal, so you can put it directly into your tank, even if it's established.

It is this die off that requires that the rock be cured. This is why you put it in the tank or other container, and look for the ammonia spike, followed by the nitrite spike. This is the point where the tank is through it's initial cycle.

Some types of live rock have a lot more things living on it or growing on it, so this die off can be substantial. Other rock may just have bacteria on it and look like wet rock. Either will work just fine. The former may take longer to cure.

Adding ammonia or a deli shrimp provide massive amounts of ammonia, so they get the bacteria up to speed much faster.

The bottom line is even if the rock is cured, once you ship it any large distance, the rock is no longer cured.
 

tomr33

Member
In my opinion, this article is full of half truths, and is not completely factual.

Live rock, even from Florida, is shipped damp to save shipping weight. This means that no matter what you do, there is going to be some die off. Also, your going to have organisms such as sponges on the rock, and unless you do some very special handling, you are not going to ba able to save them. You will also see othse areas die off, such as some algae.

The bottom line is that live rock you have shipped to you is going to cycle. Now in some cases, if it's going into an established tank, you may not see an ammonia spike, but it's still happening. It's just that the existing biological filtration can deal with it.

As far as asking how the live rock was handled goes, this is impossible for your LFS to know. It is also impossible for an online vendor to know, unless they personally supervise it's collection. Even if you do talk to the vendor and they claim they personally supervised it's collection, you still don't know if they are telling the truth. Take all these claims with more than "a grain of salt".

i ordered LR from tampabay saltwater and it came in bags full of water. not just a little at the bottom. i never had much die off at all either and some of the sponges that came on the rock is still thriving fine to this day and ive had the tank up for over a year now. so when it comes to tampabay saltwater what he says on his site is accurate. ive met him and seen his operation and he does go out to his holding site and collect it himself out in the gulf of mexico... very nice LR way better than anything ive seen in any LFS
 
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