power heads in the fuge

[BigAl07]

Very well said prow. I concur 100%. What Greg stated works for HIS tank. That's what matters and not what Eric decides to put on the net. We can't take everything that is written and say, "That's gospel and anything that doesn't align with it 100% is wrong." Greg's method is working great for his tank and for that credit is to be given.

 

[Basile]

its not useless. you have to look at erics idea of what a fuge is. its not how many, even most, others view it. for him nutrient exporting is not what a refugium is for. for him a refugium is only for growing "small crustacean life".
a refugium with only macros is pretty much useless for him, as it doesnt provide the ideal place for pods and things to propagate. for many others, growing macros for nutrient export(mainly phos) or to aid with ph stablitiy(CO2 excess) is the primary purpose of their fuge. in erics mind this is not a refugium at all, even though you are growing organisms in a predator free environment that would otherwise be eaten in the DT, even though that is the definition of a refugium, but because its not for growing crustaceans to feed the tank its not a refugium in eric's eyes. for him its only about the crustaceans. macros are only for pods "crustaceans" to feed on and hang out in/on. there are some that even grow macros for the sole purpose of feeding it their fish, but eric would say thats not a refugium dispite his definition " refugium is a place provided to allow certain organisms to grow while freed of predation or herbivory. ". nutrient export is just a small supplemental benefit not a purpose of a fuge to him. i dont buy that at all. i dont know that he does either, as he saves himself by stating
in his words;
"its supplemental though it can be signigicant"--
for powerheads in framerguy's fuge, that is the part of careful condideration, wouldnt you think, at least for famerguys wants/needs, that is increased exporting of nutrients.

some double talk, his words here;
then followed up with this;

its just his interpretation of the definitions. he veiws placing a coral in the fuge as if it was a predator and renders the fuge useless if i decide to place only macros in the "refugium" so they have a safe haven to grow without being eaten, still not a refugium??,,, but i thought--" refugium is a place provided to allow certain organisms to grow while freed of predation or herbivory. "
i dont know what orgainisms count in his mind. jsut because the the refugium is not meant to cultivate pods to feed the tank does not mean its not a refugium or is a useless refugium. for me a refugium is more than just a place for pods to grow--technically it seems he considers breeding pods in a "sump" not to be a refugium either. his words---"If one desires to keep an area for breeding or propagating organisms, it might be a tank that replicates a habitat and that may look like a refugium - but it is not a refugium"___with that, what would be refugium if not for breeding and propagating. he states "a refugium is a place provided to allow certain organisms to grow while freed of predation or herbivory."--macros grow, not a refugium though. mmmmmmmm but then pods and crustaceans breeding and propagating is not a refugium either, though it looks like one:jester:



FYI; in the opening statement his gives some misinformation, the first refugia was used by Jürgen Haffer during the 1960's in the amazon river, not by Smithsonian Caribbean mesocosm in the 1980's as erics recalls.


not bash eric, he has done a lot for the hobby. but opinions well everyone has one

Good show you make a good case. My angle was on the needs regarding flow rates and who it would serve in the tank, the macro or the crustacian population who grows better in a slow moving enviroment. The article has some good notations to consider( NOT ALL true thats for sure, i agree there)as to the induvidual need of the desired population. Which in a majority of cases ( critters and the rest ) needs only slow moving water. Plus the advantages of slow movement being lost due to powerheads. Thats all. Hey we're doing great discussing the subject, any other thoughts, keep them comming, we need debates on this site. Thanks for the interest.

 

[BigAl07]

The flow requirement is based on the long term goals of the tank owner. If they are wanting "turf algae" then by all means have ultra-low flow and even dead spots in the fuge. Many of us keep the refugium as a "Display Refugium" and have hand selected the Macro that is in it. If that's the case then additional water movement may be needed. It's important to know your system and long term goals. Heck I know some people who have a TON of flow through their fuge and it works well for THAT system. I like a turn over of maybe 10X through my fuge... it seems to at least appear more healthy in that respect than with less flow. But I don't have any fish or corals in mine either. I have sand, mud, mangroves, tons of Macro and a whole colony of who knows what living in and on the sand. It's a TON of fun to watch the fuge in the night hours when the bristle worms and snails are all out working up a storm.

 

[Basile]

The flow requirement is based on the long term goals of the tank owner. If they are wanting "turf algae" then by all means have ultra-low flow and even dead spots in the fuge. Many of us keep the refugium as a "Display Refugium" and have hand selected the Macro that is in it. If that's the case then additional water movement may be needed. It's important to know your system and long term goals. Heck I know some people who have a TON of flow through their fuge and it works well for THAT system. I like a turn over of maybe 10X through my fuge... it seems to at least appear more healthy in that respect than with less flow. But I don't have any fish or corals in mine either. I have sand, mud, mangroves, tons of Macro and a whole colony of who knows what living in and on the sand. It's a TON of fun to watch the fuge in the night hours when the bristle worms and snails are all out working up a storm.

I agree with you on that too. I'm againts doctrine( one way views) and i like to see the achievements of others thats the only way to learn.And has you have certainly noticed i'm a little "S" disturber LOL. But my aim is not to provoque but to better understanding the position of others and why they do things. From what i've observe , some do things and have no understanding why they do it( They just red it somewhere) and its not enough! I'm setting up an all algae one, with all the critters no predation what so ever and i will probaly have a circulation powerhead, but very small. Ita also an experiment, i have a digital microscope and a MAC-Micron Analyser for Chemical fluctuations. Will measure the impacts of macro on the water chemistry.Pop diversity, pop crashed, time laps pop, and other cool exp that i got from a hand book from library....i feel like Dr Jeckill LOL. HEY i got a quetion, i'm confuse with bristle worm, are they good or not? i tough we didn't want them in a tank??? confused

 

[BigAl07]

Bristle worms (IMHO) get a bumm wrap. You don't want to handle them (OUCHIE) but they are a GREAT part of your total filtration system. Unless they are huge (google it.. there is one out there that was FEET long) they pose little harm to you or your livestock. On occasion they may take up home close to a coral and "irritate" it and in that case move the coral I guess. For the most part they are FEARED more than they should be. With any other aspect of this hobby use caution and incorporate safety (gloves) into your maintenance. They are AMAZING detritus eaters and work hard so you don't have to. Also some people have noted they are "Fish Eaters" but this is often just the fact that the fish was sick or otherwise "on it's way out" and the worm just wanted to be FIRST on the scene for the buffet. The same can be said for many crabs (Not all but many).

 

[prow]

i could not agree more

i posted this on page 2

yeah i think so with out a dout. i think many setup the refugium, knowing or not, so it does both, produce pods and export nutrients, but does neither very efficiently. i think you got the needs of both setups.

on one of my current setups, the refugium was set up for exporting. i dont use PH but i run my chiller(900gph) on a closed loop running back through the refugium and skimmer sections. whatever pods i get is just a bounus. i use cheato for mainly exporting but it can also be used to manily cultivate pods. flow matters there, higher flow for lots growth(exporting) lower for pods(cultivating), mid for a little of both but not a lot of either.

on my new system i am setting up the refugium for mainly pod production but do want some exporting aswell. so i am splitting my overflows one going to a sump with the skimmer and the other going to the refugium(with cheato and some rubble rock) then i will have a refugium with a DSB in the middle where the cheato refugium and skimmer sump connect. from the i run two pumps one to the chiller emptying back into the skimmer sump-which will recir some of the water back through the skimmer and increase flow velocity across the DSB. by this i hope to maximize pod production in the refugium with lower flow rates (whatever cheato growth "exporting" i get is just a bouns here) and at the same time increase my exporting with the extra recirculated flow across the DSB also increasing worms, funna things. this is still a work in progress as i am still working on it but that is the basic ideas.

i went a different way on the fuge a little. still ended up with 2 sumps but no DSB. refugium is cheato and rubble rock with good recir flow(CO2 exporting). i still get lots pods. the setup is in my clamicle if you want to check it out. needs updating but the setup is there.


i can not say much more than what already said in this thread, but can add i agree 1000% on "I'm againts doctrine( one way views)" the greatest thing about reefing, IMO, is putting the pieces together to fit the needs of the tank. the goals vary and with it the needs change, got to love it

 

[lcstorc]

I have very little flow through my fuge so I do have a small power head in there. It just keeps thing stirred up a bit. When I didn't have one, my macro didn't grow at all and things just looked icky. I do have a pretty diverse fuge that hopefully does several things for the tank. I have a DSB, LR, macro, a couple of unwanted crabs and snails, and the sponges that have just appeared over time. I also have thousands of small brittle stars and I am sure plenty of bristle worms and of course tons of pods.

 

[prow]

I agree with you on that too. I'm againts doctrine( one way views) and i like to see the achievements of others thats the only way to learn.And has you have certainly noticed i'm a little "S" disturber LOL. But my aim is not to provoque but to better understanding the position of others and why they do things. From what i've observe , some do things and have no understanding why they do it( They just red it somewhere) and its not enough! I'm setting up an all algae one, with all the critters no predation what so ever and i will probaly have a circulation powerhead, but very small. Ita also an experiment, i have a digital microscope and a MAC-Micron Analyser for Chemical fluctuations. Will measure the impacts of macro on the water chemistry.Pop diversity, pop crashed, time laps pop, and other cool exp that i got from a hand book from library....i feel like Dr Jeckill LOL. HEY i got a quetion, i'm confuse with bristle worm, are they good or not? i tough we didn't want them in a tank??? confused

dont forget to use lots of carbon with heavy turf growths

bristle worms are great as Al said, dont be grabbing them without gloves. there populations is usually related and controlled with available nutrients.

 

[Basile]

dont forget to use lots of carbon with heavy turf growths

bristle worms are great as Al said, dont be grabbing them without gloves. there populations is usually related and controlled with available nutrients.

Can you feed your carnivores with the bristle worm?? My Cardinal eats big copepods like crazy, anything with movements. Let me know.

 

[BigAl07]

Can you feed your carnivores with the bristle worm?? My Cardinal eats big copepods like crazy, anything with movements. Let me know.

Surprisingly enough I saw this recently... during a feeding in my 90g tank there was a bristle worm roaming around (hiney still in the rock) and catching food in the current. A cardinal spied his movement and quickly yanked him OUT of the rock. Well apparently it was a little more "sticky" than he had planned and he quickly spit it out... by this time he had back up (read competition for food here) and a MASSIVE frenzy took place... they took turns trying to gulp it down and then spitting it out.. each time one spit it out another grabbed it... finally one decided he was TOUGH and gulped it down for good So they WILL eat it but they had a time at first... I was shocked.. I didn't think they had much "feeling" in the mouth area... who woulda-thunk it?

 

[prow]

Can you feed your carnivores with the bristle worm?? My Cardinal eats big copepods like crazy, anything with movements. Let me know.

some fish love them, dottybacks come to mind. i know damsels eat them up too. many wrasses, what carnivores are you talking about?

 

[Basile]

Surprisingly enough I saw this recently... during a feeding in my 90g tank there was a bristle worm roaming around (hiney still in the rock) and catching food in the current. A cardinal spied his movement and quickly yanked him OUT of the rock. Well apparently it was a little more "sticky" than he had planned and he quickly spit it out... by this time he had back up (read competition for food here) and a MASSIVE frenzy took place... they took turns trying to gulp it down and then spitting it out.. each time one spit it out another grabbed it... finally one decided he was TOUGH and gulped it down for good So they WILL eat it but they had a time at first... I was shocked.. I didn't think they had much "feeling" in the mouth area... who woulda-thunk it?

MMMH i'll keep that in mind. I'll only use small ones then as an experiment in live food . My Pistol shrimp might also be interested

 

[BigAl07]

MMMH i'll keep that in mind. I'll only use small ones then as an experiment in live food . My Pistol shrimp might also be interested

Great looking shrimp

 

[prow]

looks delicious

 

[Basile]

Great looking shrimp

Thanks, its what i got but its not my picture lol. I took that from a site . I keep a catalog and a logbook of everthing that happens in my tank, for backcheck.

 

[BigAl07]

Good idea bro. I'm working on that but have yet to "complete" it. Sounds like a good fall/winter project for sure

 

[Basile]

Good idea bro. I'm working on that but have yet to "complete" it. Sounds like a good fall/winter project for sure

Ya thanks, i like this thread better LOL LOL

 

[framerguy]

Hmmm, this thread has been dormant for a while. I'm glad it's alive again. I have changed my system drastically since I started this thread and now have a 375 DT with two refugiums. One is a 75 (which used to be the DT) that houses a shallow crushed coral bed and live rock and macro algaes. The pods are humongous in there and plentiful...just the way I want them. I have a koralia 3 providing water movement which doesn't seem to amount to much flow considering the size of the pump. The macros do move but the cheato sits quite still and doesn't tumble like I had hoped. Copepod production and macro growth for nutrient export are the purpose for this particular refugium and evedintly it is doing it's job because like I said the pod count is through the roof and the DT has very little unwanted algae. My second refugium is a 55g mangrove/seagrass bed tank which is aging at the moment. I do have a seaswirl providing water movement in there. Seagrass beds are relatively high current areas and I want to replicate that environment. The purpose of this tank is to provide nutrient uptake and also to provide a biotope for corals and animals that live in those areas, in particular Elegance corals, feather dusters, sponges, and various shrimp and other crustaceans.It will be a "refugium" in the sense that it will not house animals that prey on the animals in the tank. I disagree a bit with Eric and his assessment of what a refugium "is". To me it is a "refuge" if the animals or plants housed in it are free from predation. My refugiums could also be mistaken for Display tanks since I work very hard at keeping them attractive and functional just like my 375 complete with clean up crews, corals (xenia for nutrient export), algaes (beautiful ones in bright reds and greens), clean viewing glass, etc.

I think many (too many) people have too little current in their refugiums to the point of stagnation almost and rely on too little bulk movement of water. 5 to 10x turnover is adequate, many are woefully under that mark. I have about 8x bulk turnover and a power head in each to provide movement. It works for me and is achieving my goals. I have a turf scrubber also and use carbon which I change 25% weekly. I am considering removing the scrubber simply because I feel it is using too many nutrients that the macro algaes could benefit from. I will probably just make it smaller first and monitor the algaes. My goal is to eventually disconnect my protein skimmer and let the plants and algaes and live rock provide the filtration and water changes just like it does on the reef. I don't know if this post has alleviated any concerns about how I run my refugiums but there you have it.

 

[Frankie]

Since I cut of the refuguim from the main system it is standing alone. I needed to add a power head to keep it from doing just that. Getting stagnant. I am saving it for Lee's clown tank set up.
Good to see a post from you again Graig

 

[framerguy]

Thanks Frankie...I'm here a bit but mostly reading.