Lighting... suggestions Please

[fatman]

Did you read the link I provided?

I'm not gonna beat this horse anymore. For me, LED's are working out just great. No light is perfect, but for now the Solaris is the best choice for my mixed reef, and there is no doubt in my mind the corals are thriving.

I really do not know why you are getting all bent out of shape, and talking about beating this (dead) horse. The discussion should definitely not ended with such a poor write up as any reason. I have read that article in the past (the link provided by you) and read it again and it does not answer any questions I have now, or ever had. Actually his scientific peers have already read him the riot act about the lack of any really useful data in that write up. It states that the PAR and PUR are maybe 10 percent better at 50 millimeters (just under 2 inches) below the light source than a 250 watt 20000K halide bulb. I really do not care what the light is capable of doing in the way of PAR or PUR outside of the tank above the water and two inches below a plastic protectivelense. It is not even a good enough write up to state whether the ballast on the halide was electronic or magnetic, which effects the light output by around 10 to 30 percent. Duh, then there is the fact that a 250 watt HQI halide 6500 K (with magnetic ballast) provides about 30 percent better PAR and PUR than a 250 watt 20000K bulb (with a magnetic ballast) and a 250 watt HQI halide 10000K (with electronic ballast)provides from 20 percent better PAR and PUR than a 250 watt 20000K halide. That makes a 250 watt HQI halide of 10000K or 20000K (driven by cheap magnetic ballasts)higher in PAR and PUR than a LED at a level just below the bulbs. There is no data about PAR or PUR at depths in actual water given in this write up. His graphs are readings in the same horizontal plane and all at the same height below the bulbs, not at different depths. Therefore, my questions are still not answered.
I am glad for you that the lights provide adquately for your needs, but my needs are different from yours.
I would be glad to look at any links that provide data that is really useful from anyone on this forum. I am not trying to argue with you or call you out, I am just hoping somebody has run across some useful data for which they have a link or even an authors name that I can google.

 

[rmlevasseur]

Not bent out of shape at all. As I've said, if you wanna wait to see how wall-to-wall SPS works out for you under a Solaris, enjoy your wait.

As for me, what possible use would further PAR and PUR testing do for me? I look at the proof every day. There are many chronicles now of people using the Solaris. If these tanks are substantially different than what you want, then you have no choice but to wait it out. But the poster said he wanted a mixed reef, and there is too much evidence now that the Solaris handles these tanks beautifully and offers many advantages over MH. That's all there is to it bud.

 

[AQTCJAK]

Being the resident expert on the Solaris LED Advaced lighting system. The Solaris will out preform any other lighting system on the planet the growth is far superior than anything else. I have them on most of the tanks I care for I sell more of these lighing systems than any other system available. Growth is just out of this world when Vicki & I started Dating she had a Geen Monti Cap & a Brown Birds nest both about 4" in diamenter 9 months later with the H Series 400 Watt Systeme the Cap is 18" Across & 10" high The Birds Nest is 10"x10" & Purple Pink both have been fragged several time to keep them from growing out of the tank. Clams & Acros are on the sand bed Oh BTW this is a 125Gallon Everything just flurishes in this tank Roberts & Dentoids tanks are equally as beautiful & the growth is out of this world JM $.02

 

[TurboSnail8898]

The Solaris will out preform any other lighting system on the planet the growth is far superior than anything else.

Dude, the solaris is a good lighting system, but how can you justify a claim that is based on so many different factors. For instance, when you talk about the SPS growth that you experienced it would seem to me that factors like flow, stability and nutrient levels would come into play as much as the lighting. My LFS uses a pair of Solaris for their display and they get some really good growth and the colors they get out of the LPS are really awesome. Saying something along the line of "solaris is the best system for me and my needs" makes sense, but to say something like you did, doesn't.

 

[AQTCJAK]

I have been in this hobby for better than 25 years I have seen the evloution of Lighting both Fresh & Salt & by far Solaris LED is the Best Lighting System on the Planet. Solaris best mimics the suns Spectrum even lighting specturms the human eye can not see. However the corals a life forms can. No other lighting systems has this capability. The subjuect was lighting suggestions & total cost of Ownership the Solaris far out wieght them all as well.

You are off on an entirely different subject when talking about nutrients parameters etc. I can give you the best there is if you have no knowledge you make anything except algae grow.

 

[lcstorc]

Well I'll throw in my 2c.
I am about to buy a Solaris. The circumstantial evidence is more than enough for me and my mixed reef particularly when you throw in the electrical, heat, and bulb savings. Then again, I am not in a commercial SPS business. I am just a hobbiest who wants the best reef reasonably possible.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

There are no absolutes in this hobby and technology is always making it better. Those are the things I know.

There are so many lighting options to be thanful for, eh?

 

[Frankie]

I love these threads! I am very interested in the idea of LED's, I took this subject up with Dr. Sanjay in chat 4 years ago but like fatman stated i will need more scientific data to go on before purchasing these ridiculously priced experimental lights. It will take a lot more then the average hobbiest or lfs owner to sell me on better lighting over MH's. On a few tanks mentioned above that have these lighting systems i have noticed undesirable algae growth. I am not saying this is just the lighting because it can also be due to poor husbandry but when it comes to algae lighting plays a big factor.
Even in the link Robert provided the par results and some other key issues were skeptical at best.
I don't want to bash these completely and believe that the future hold well for the idea.

 

[Gina]

There are so many lighting options to be thanful for, eh?

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Oh and let's all play nice in the sand box, eh?

 

[lcstorc]

Choices are always good.
My other 2 tanks have T5s and I wouldn't dream of changing those.

 

[Frankie]

Lets try to keep an open mind while discussing this topic and not let it get heated please. Were all here to learn. I have learned from the newest kid on the block many times and your post count holds little weight with me. It's the value of what you say that matters.
Unfortunately discussions like this can go one of two ways. Open minded learning or a closed thread. Lets Learn!

 

[rmlevasseur]

I suggest a specific forum on LEDs. This way people will have a forum that they can turn to chronicle the progress of corals under these lights.

 

[AQTCJAK]

great Idea

 

[Gina]

I suggest a specific forum on LEDs. This way people will have a forum that they can turn to chronicle the progress of corals under these lights.

Try sending Travis/Doni a PM and see what they think!

 

[Frankie]

I suggest a specific forum on LEDs. This way people will have a forum that they can turn to chronicle the progress of corals under these lights.

Awesome idea! I found using this really works.
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/suggestion-box/

 

[fatman]

Not bent out of shape at all. As I've said, if you wanna wait to see how wall-to-wall SPS works out for you under a Solaris, enjoy your wait.

As for me, what possible use would further PAR and PUR testing do for me? I look at the proof every day. There are many chronicles now of people using the Solaris. If these tanks are substantially different than what you want, then you have no choice but to wait it out. But the poster said he wanted a mixed reef, and there is too much evidence now that the Solaris handles these tanks beautifully and offers many advantages over MH. That's all there is to it bud.

I am asking because it is what I want to know. If you can not supply a link why can you just not leave it at "I do not have that information or know of a link with that information" instead of taking this as a personal challenge. I do not question that it works for you. I just question whether anyone has read anything in the way of tests that would show that the lighting system might fit my needs. I do not run a mixed tank system. I have only SPS and need PAR and PUR equivalent (at depths up to 24 inches) or better than that delivered by 250 watt HQI halides driven by magnetic ballasts. I do not ask whether you are interested in my needs or results of tests that are of no interest to you and I fail to see why you are apparently offended. I do not doubt your results, they just do not apply to my needs so I am just asking if there is any other tests or data out there that does apply to my needs. I really just do not want to spend 3 or 4 thousand dollars on a lighting system if I do not believe it can fill my need, because halides work but I would like to do away with the occasional need for using a chiller. I would have to spend over $600 in just shipping (at the cheapest rate) for one lighting fixture plus the purchase price. That is a steep price for something for which I can not see statistics or test data.

 

[mps9506]

Well I don't think there is any doubt that for MOST SPS folks, especially with deeper tanks LED is not the way to go yet.
From what I've read you are looking at around 5 years to recover you intial investment difference between a MH unit and LED fixture with your energy savings. That is a long time, and with bulb replacement around 5-7 years you are gonna be putting money right back into the expensive bulbs, that you don't have to replace as often as cheaper MH bulbs.
So tradeoffs either way.
For me I'm waiting until we have more fixtures that are:
1: Not made in china
2: Are more economical
Since there aren't a lot of companies putting out the LED fixtures I think the units are a bit overpriced either from lack of competition or lack of volume. whichever, but no doubt it will decrease in price as competition and volume ramp up. At that point the return on investment will be much better.

As far as most SPS keepers, it will be very hardpressed to see many of us change from the tried and proven MH moguls and DE bulbs, especially on deeper tanks.
FWIW my softy/lps nano will be LED lit. Just not by a unit made in China. I'm a sucker for gadgets.

 

[fatman]

Well I don't think there is any doubt that for MOST SPS folks, especially with deeper tanks LED is not the way to go yet.
From what I've read you are looking at around 5 years to recover you intial investment difference between a MH unit and LED fixture with your energy savings. That is a long time, and with bulb replacement around 5-7 years you are gonna be putting money right back into the expensive bulbs, that you don't have to replace as often as cheaper MH bulbs.
So tradeoffs either way.
For me I'm waiting until we have more fixtures that are:
1: Not made in china
2: Are more economical
Since there aren't a lot of companies putting out the LED fixtures I think the units are a bit overpriced either from lack of competition or lack of volume. whichever, but no doubt it will decrease in price as competition and volume ramp up. At that point the return on investment will be much better.


As far as most SPS keepers, it will be very hardpressed to see many of us change from the tried and proven MH moguls and DE bulbs, especially on deeper tanks.
FWIW my softy/lps nano will be LED lit. Just not by a unit made in China. I'm a sucker for gadgets.

Wow, thank you for a sane and civil reply. For a while I felt like I was either in a court room or trying to cross a mine field.
I even tried the Solaris site last night and the data or statistics are just not available on LED lighting. Dana's write up is so skewed as to make it worthless to anyone but the manafacturers. I would like simple information such as: when the lights are adjusted to provide the best lighting for coral growth at 6500K what is the lights output in comparison to an Iwaki 6500K bulb driven by a magnetic ballast. Also the same data for 100000K. I understand that the units were made in general for the masses which now seems to be the mixed reef crowd with a love for 140000K to 20000K lighting, and that the majority of the LEDS will be runnuing full tilt with this blue output (20000K) so therefore running at its best. But that does nothing to show what people when using healthier ranges of 6500K to 100000K would recieve from these lights adjusted for such. It would only make since to me that when half the bulbs are not being used or barely used as in a output such as 6500K the LED lighting would definitely have a much decreased output. This data could be easily obtained by anyone with a LED lighting system and an Apogee light meter or equivalent, yet this information is not being posted, by Riddle, Solaris or anyone else. I realise that Dana is a paid researcher and that might have some effect on his only providing very limited testing that is very skewed in favor of the equipment supplier, but there is a limit, and it was obviously passed.:hammerhea
Thank You again for a civil reply!

 

[rmlevasseur]

Alright, lets bury the hatchet. You want the numbers and you aint got the numbers. I get it.

But, I can speak from experience when I say that I have every reason to believe that SPS would do just as well under the Solaris as the rest of my corals. I say this because I have had to turn the intensity down 30% on my Solaris just to stop softie bleaching. Even reduced, I am seeing incredible growth in my SPS frags. I guess you can pawn that off on a number of other factors, but can't that be said for MH tanks as well?

My Solaris is on a 180. I'm not sure what you mean by deep but even in my 180 many of my corals and my clams are on the very bottom and doing fine.

I understand completely that the corals are the bottom line - after all, this is what it is all about, but in all honesty MH is an outdated technology. Even if I were to give you that SPS do better under MH, it doesn't mean they don't do well under the Solaris. Once you factor in all the other benefits, the Solaris would seem to be the winner for most.

As for the comment on algae growth under the Solaris, well that one really has me boggled. My algae growth was far worse under MH.