Lighting... suggestions Please

[fatman]

Actually I was mainly referencing the didactic comment. The past is the past, however, I am quite often prone to the tit for tat exchanges even though they show a lack of good charcter. But if it was not for my defects of charcter I might not have any character at all. I must admit I had to edit my replies at times as I do get gritty when I think I am being provoked by comments like, "I have no problem wiith that. Do you?" I thought that was in the past until the didactic comment came out.
I have stead fastly and repeatedly stated that I can believe the LED lighting is a good system for you and other keepers of mixed tanks, and that is great. I have also said repeatedly that it could be better designed for the needs of the SPS keepers that do not need or want high K value lights, or for those reefers who want an efficient low heat lighting source that is not designed to fill the needs of all possible reef organisms, just those they wish to house.
I have nothing more to add, and I should not have even come back to this thread this time.

 

[rmlevasseur]

Well, you have convinced yourself Fatman but not me. You seem to make a lot of conclusions about the Solaris and yet you decry the lack of testing to make those conclusions on.

 

[lcstorc]

Sorry if I misunderstood but since you quoted my post in the hostile comment I assumed you were referring to it. Perhaps it was a case of going back and editing. I certainly have done that MANY times.
We can certainly agree to disagree and I do hope they come up with a more flexible light or perhaps different models for different needs. Unfortunately if/when they do they will be quite expensive in the beginning as well.
That is just the price of new technology.

:hug1:

 

[mps9506]

One thing to keep in mind is I do think that LED's will eventually be made specifically for the reef hobby" by Mike. Isn't that what the Solaris is??? I also took from Mike's comments that he believed the Solaris was geared for high K values. This seems to misunderstand the Solaris. Because you can punch up the blue doesn't mean its geared for high K. Its just a feature.

I was totally misunderstood. The actual LED bulbs are not made for the reef hobby. The LED unit is
PFO takes LEDS that are manufactured by other companies and spec'd for other applications and takes the ones that are comparable to spectral outputs of what's needed by reefkeepers and plugs them into their unit.
There are ZERO led bulbs on the market that are made specifically to output spectral wavelengths geared for our hobby.
And yes the Solaris is adjustable by adjusting the output of the blue and white bulbs, but the one thing I have found lacking from the LED bulbs in the spectral output (these have been posted on RC) is simply almost all the white bulbs have their major blue peak at 450nm or 490nm. This is not ideal for flourescence of the blue pigments in SPS corals. This is a major downer compared to using a wellbalanced 10k or 12k bulb that has the peak right where the corals needs it.
I have yet to see the spectral plot of the blue LED's used in the Solaris so can't comment on those.


EDIT:
FWIW Elos's new E-Lite is supposed to have a 10k unit with bulbs built to spec by Luxeon Spectral plots and par of the unit is supposed to be published soon. It is a pricey unit without bulb dimming etc. But is very very small and apparently has the output of an equivelent 150watt MH 10k unit. It would suit everyones needs, but once we see the plots maybe it will be a step in the right direction. I personally don't care much about the PAR, but the PUR and spectral plots.

 

[lcstorc]

Leave it to Elos. They have some of the coolest stuff.
Maybe they will have it on display at MACNA this year.
Definitely out of my price range but always nice to see the latest and greatest.

 

[mps9506]

Here are some plots to typical white (that is what LED manufacturers call them) LED bulbs:

From Gomer at RC:

You'll notice a few things.
1) strong dominating peak at ~460
2) med-strong broad peak at ~575
3) dip at 500
4) barely any light below 450
5) barely any light below 675

These bulbs are obsiously lacking in the 400-450 nm range (blue purple), 500nm range (yellow/green).

Here is a PDF link to the datasheet on the Phillips bulbs, if you look at the spectral plots of the white bulbs they looks similar to above, even the "blue" or deep blue bulbs peak only at 450nm doing us no good.
http://www.lumileds.com/pdfs/DS56.pdf

This is my point with LED bulbs currently:
The spectral output is lacking proper coverage currently. And many of you know how anal us SPS people are regarding lighting, we want to make sure not only to get the best growth but best coloration and fluorescence from corals. what is out there currently is lacking compared to what is out there for MH when it comes to spectrum, and I'm not even comparing PAR or PUR. That can come around once the spectrums are adjusted properly and intensity I'm sure can be easily altered to suit everyones needs.

 

[mps9506]

Keep in mind I have no idea what the units are on the y axis for the aqua illuminations unit is. The graphs cannot be compared directly because of the different units on the Y axis. This is only posted to show how different the peaks are, and where the LED unit is lacking in the blue and UV spectrums.

Aquailluminations spectral plot, they use the Triple soul P4 Led bulbs I think:

and a bulb much more suited for growing SPS corals (10k DE 250 watt XDE)

single ended 250watt 10k AB (the bulb I used for sps)

As you can see the emissions below 450 are severly lacking in LEDs currently used in the market.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Fatman,

As you know no two tanks are the same and all have different requirements. Most things in this hobby can be acieved even if they may go against the grain so to speak. It was your absolutes, without owning Solaris, that elicited the term "didactic".

It is wise not to use absolute terms as you may be proven wrong, as I have been on numerous occasions, in this hobby. The term was not meant to be insulting, and I'm sorry it was taken as such.

This has been a very good discussion on balance and a good exchange of information. I ask that you extend the same grace that has been extended to you when your comments have ruffled the feathers of other members participating in the thread. I think Lynn staed the sentiments of all of us in her last post.

I , as well as others, would be very intereseted to see what lighting system you arrive at to meet your requirements for an SPS tank.

 

[rmlevasseur]

That is interesting, but I recently read an excellent article which seems to conclude that as long as the light falls within the K range needed by zooanthellae - which is quite large - everything else is mainly aesthetic. You would have to show me a report that says that the Solaris' LEDs fall outside of that range, and I'm quite sure they don't. I'll try to dig up that article, its very good.

 

[rmlevasseur]

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Coral Coloration and Incident Light: A Photographic Essay

This is excellent. Not sure if it was what I was looking for as I don't have time to reread the whole article. I think this one leans towards 20k bulbs showing the best growth.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Thanks for the link Robert!

 

[mps9506]

Advanced Aquarist's Online Magazine - Feature Article: Coral Coloration and Incident Light: A Photographic Essay

This is excellent. Not sure if it was what I was looking for as I don't have time to reread the whole article. I think this one leans towards 20k bulbs showing the best growth.

Very good article. I don't think there is ANY doubt that for ideal viewing and coloration 20k bulbs have been the ideal choice:

Nevertheless, two focused conclusions are supported by these data: (1) the colors of these specific corals viewed under 20K lighting appear more vibrant compared to either 10K or T5 lighting. In addition, the coral colors appear quite similar under these latter two lighting schemes. The former observation could be due to the inability of the human eye and/or the color correction procedure to completely eliminate the dominant effect of the blue light in the 20K bulb's spectrum. (2) In some cases, the growth light does induce, uniquely, the production of specific coral coloration molecules. Whereas the first conclusion has been recognized for as long as 20K bulbs have been available, the experiments described herein suggest, for the first time, that the specific coloration molecules that define these vibrant colors are actually present in the coral even if it is grown out under lower Kelvin-rated lighting.

That said , take a look at the bulbs I have shown graphs of above. The LED bulbs are NOT 20k bulbs but more of a 10k bulb. Why is everyone comparing 10k LED bulbs to 20K MH bulbs when it comes to spectral INTENSITY. This is not a fair comparison. If you compare a 10k LED bulb to both the Spectral Plots and Spectral Intensity you see the LED is lacking in many aspects.

As far as coral flourescence, here are the proteins responsible and their corresponding wavelengths
Excitation wavelength / Emission wavelength -- protein name
Blue Fluorescent Proteins
383 / 445 -- EBFP
399 / 511 -- Sapphire
399 / 511 -- T-Sapphire
Cyan Fluorescent Proteins
439 / 476 -- ECFP
433 / 475 -- mCFP
433 / 475 -- Cerulean
435 / 477 -- CyPet
458 / 489 -- AmCyan1
472 / 495 -- Midori-Ishi Cyan
462 / 492 -- mTFP1 (Teal)
Green Fluorescent Proteins
484 / 507 -- EGFP
480 / 505 -- AcGFP
482 / 502 -- TurboGFP
487 / 509 -- Emerald
492 / 505 -- Azami Green
493 / 505 -- ZsGreen
Yellow Fluorescent Proteins
514 / 527 -- EYFP
514 / 527 -- Topaz
515 / 528 -- Venus
516 / 529 -- mCitrine
517 / 530 -- YPet
525 / 537 -- PhiYFP
529 / 539 -- ZsYellow1
540 / 553 -- mBanana
Orange and Red Fluorescent Proteins
548 / 559 -- Kusabira Orange
548 / 562 -- mOrange
554 / 581 -- dTomato
554 / 581 -- dTomato-Tandem
558 / 583 -- DsRed
563 / 582 -- DsRed2
555 / 584 -- DsRed-Express (T1)
556 / 586 -- DsRed-Monomer
568 / 585 -- mTangerine
574 / 596 -- mStrawberry
576 / 592 -- AsRed2
584 / 607 -- mRFP1
584 / 610 -- JRed
587 / 610 -- mCherry
588 / 618 -- HcRed1
598 / 625 -- mRaspberry
590 / 637 -- HcRed-Tandem
590 / 649 -- mPlum
595 / 655 -- AQ143

You can still see where LED's are lacking in the fluorescence wavelengths for corals regardless of whatever kelvin they are rated. This can easily be overcome by using additional T5, halide bulbs or spotlight bulbs in combination with the LED's to highlight spectral peaks that the LED's are missing. But if you want an all in one package, I would still wait for the LED's to be produced that highlight those wavelenghts to get optimal growth and coloration from SPS corals.

 

[mps9506]

And one more post, you can compare the absorption curves of zooxanthellae to the spectral plots of both LED's and 10k halides:

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Fantastic info. Mike!

 

[Opsanus tau]

All I Know is that I just removed two 48" Solaris units from my Elos 120 xl and replaced them with MH fixtures combined w/fluorescent...and all of my corals are coming back, and I can actually enjoy the look of the tank,(the LED's don't look right,..very cold or something..IMO).( I have the original "G" series(250 MH-equivalent),perhaps the new ones actually work, but mine suck!..I wouldn't give these fixtures to someone just for the sake of the animals that would be tortured, and eventually die beneath them.)

 

[fatman]

All I Know is that I just removed two 48" Solaris units from my Elos 120 xl and replaced them with MH fixtures combined w/fluorescent...and all of my corals are coming back, and I can actually enjoy the look of the tank,(the LED's don't look right,..very cold or something..IMO).( I have the original "G" series(250 MH-equivalent),perhaps the new ones actually work, but mine suck!..I wouldn't give these fixtures to someone just for the sake of the animals that would be tortured, and eventually die beneath them.)

Hurry, everybody duck, cover and run. Head for the fox holes, bombs are about to go off! (Just a shout from the past)
Them be fighting words pilgram! (For all you young people that is my John Wayne immitation)
Opsanus tau thank you for your report on your Solaris trial with SPS.


Seriously though, these recent posts are great test data in keeping with what I had been hoping someone could/would supply. Thank you mps9506.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Thanks for the report as well.