Jaubert Plenum

[mojoreef]

Hey Doug I remember those talks but you know its tough to jump in front of a crusade, lol. I have read that article and actually talked with Jullien a few times about his testing. His article is a strong one though. What I am trying to do is to find the medium of the lesser of the two evils, trying to make one works.

Mike

 

[Maxx]

I'm kinda missing wha exactly you, (mike) and Flatlander are discussion. It sorta seems like you guys are disagreeing on something, but I cant find it in the conversation. Calurpa??? Otherwise, you guys seem like your agreeing on things. No big deal, just don't wanna miss anything. As far as detritus removal from beneath the plenum...why not just put a bulkhead and connect a ball valve w/ some hose to the bottom of the tank and use that? Big enough bulkhead and you wont have to worry about crap removal. The suction created should be able to get all of that out. I know you'd have to insure you're not trying to drill a tempered bottom, and there is the danger of draining the plenum out completely if a leak occurs....but other than those minor issues, D ), whats the problem?
Nick

 

[Scooterman]

Throw them a bone Ah Max, good thought!

 

[mojoreef]

Maxx me and Doug were part of a discussion with a few Biologists awhile back, on some simular ground. We never got to a an actual system though, the biologists had other thingns on thier minds (me to I guess) Doug offered to experiment with his tank. other then that is all on what is being discussed now. I believe DOugs questions was way bother. the calurpa dislike is me, I am not a big fan. But doug runs a ATS system on his tank.
Your concept could be ok to, definately less plumbing. The only thing I would like to make sure would be to get the solids out for sure.

 

[Flatlander]

Nick,
Actually we agree on the calerpa. I dont like it as a nutrient transport either. I just mentioned it as an alternative. I use a large turf scrubber, which uses turf algae. I once tried the large sump/refugium/calerpa thing. It may work for many, but not me.
Please excuse my reference to an old tank of mine on TOTM, but its the only pics I have left of that system.
http://reefcentral.com/totm/2001-04

As to your idea for a bottom drain. I have wondered about something like that also. Would it not be similar to those that have made a drain that runs up to the top of the tank for sampling? I think Charles D. was doing some tests along that like at the Waikiki Aquarium, {not sure}, but have heard no results.

I know some have used it as sort of a slow flow undergravel, to change out some plenum water. My worries about that would be escaping nitrates or something.

Also wonder how much the massive draining from a bottom valve, would effect the low oxygen levels, desired in the plenum itself?

 

[mojoreef]

Thats the idea Doug, the draining would fully oxygenate the lower plenum. and that part would be down for a period of time, but I cant see having to do it more the 3 to four times a year.


Mike

 

[Scooterman]

Even a drain with a check installed, I guess would let too much air in right?

 

[Curtswearing]

Ok----I'm a huge proponent of caulerpa and it seems I'm one of the last ones. There are pros and cons of a lot of things. The important thing is to know the facts of them so you can make up your own mind. However, that is for a future thread. (And frankly, that is what all of these threads are for. People WANT info and they are sometimes afraid to question conventional wisdom for fear they will look dumb or will be attacked. Well maybe conventional wisdom should be questioned sometimes and you won't get attacked here on RS).

Most of the people on this thread know I got a free 200 gallon glass tank that is going to become a sump/fuge/coral growout tank for my 75g that is in my wall. The previous owner was remodeling his house and the water was allowed to evaporate until there was no more water. Whenever I have a spare hour or two, I'll take some vinegar water to it and scrub a section. I wish I would have put the tank in my garage so I could have filled it with water and vinegar and let it sit for a week. Unfortunately, it is in my basement and the vinegar would stink up the entire house.

As most of the people reading this thread know, my plan was to slowly remove my DSB from my display tank taking it down to a thin layer and then putting a remote DSB in the fuge of this new tank. In that way, I could maintain the DSB. I haven't had a hydrogen sulfide problem as I had a pistol shrimp occassionally moving to a different area of the tank on occassion (Butch was killed by a hitchhiker mantis a week or two ago).

At this point, I'm glad I never got it set up. I think I'll keep debating these issues and decide the best way to set up my new sump/fuge/growout tank.

You guys are the greatest!!!

 

[Scooterman]

Curts, maybe why you had no sulfide problems is because your DSB wasn't matured or not filled with the proper bacteria, as I mentioned earlier these kits & LS you buy just isn't enough, it would also take lots longer to fully develop your DSB. I guess in a way you could be considered lucky being your moving it anyway. I say this because I removed mine also with no problems, but long when I removed the DSB in my 30g a year & half ago, it got very nasty, toxin levels was of the charts. I removed all stock before doing anything with it though so I had no loss. I may be way of base here so correct me if I'm wrong. Sorry we're getting off subject as I just peeked in the thread, sorry folks.

 

[mojoreef]

Its all good Scott. Sulphide zons are not that static, they can form anwhere from on the surface to deep in the depth of the bed (remember my surface of a boat thing, lol) they will form where the enviroment is correct) What happnes alot in tanks is that clogs form and even though the area blow maybe fine the clog creates an impassable boundry. This happens alot when folks get thier new sand in thier new tank and then dump in frsh LR to cure and cycle. The ammount of die off all at one creates it sulphide zone.
When we torn down Chucks tank (mtndewman) he had areas that had no sulphide and then other areas where the sulphide was a 1/4 inch below the surface. This susceptablility to clooging is way I was thinking the larger particles would be a fix??
Curt on the removal you have to keep a biggie in mind. and I think his is where scoot was going. eventually you are going to reach a point in the bed where you will reach a deeply anaerobic zone. I would suggest making sure that you do the stir and suck out above method prior to removing the lower layers, this way yu wont leave any of the nasty stuff on top, if you do you are going to have it leach.

Mike

 

[Curtswearing]

I always break all of the 'rules'. That's why I love this forum.

Scott....very good possibility.

Mike....thanks for the great info.

(Good going Scott......Your detrivore kit comments will be subjected to headache-provoking threads at a later date).

 

[Scooterman]

As I was saying last night when my computer crashed...It can be fun to break the rules.

Mike, if the particles don't clump to the larger pebbles, what will they clump to or will they clump together, just smaller clumps than with fine sand?

 

[Maxx]

Originally posted by Scooterman
Even a drain with a check installed, I guess would let too much air in right?

How would air itself get down there? Its all about phsyics. See if you open a drain at the bottom of the tank, and the tank isnt sealed air tight, the air will "push" the water down the drain in to what ever is at the end of the hose. Gravity will pull the water, but the air pressure itself will prevent any of the back bubbles I think your asking about Scott, so you wont need check valves for that reason.
Nice Tank Flatlander! You say its been broken down??? Thats too bad. I didnt get to read over it very much...I have to go tot school here shortly. But I'll check it out tonight.
Nick

 

[Scooterman]

Good point, sorta like a flush valve.

 

[NaH2O]

Interesting...the way this is evolving....Mike, how do you feel about these ideas and where this is heading?

 

[mojoreef]

Scoot, sorry I am lost abit here. Are you talking about the sand clumping together or waste clumping together???

Nick the concept regardless if just draining or using a PH, is that Oxygenated water will take over position in the plenum zone (not air). This oxygenated water will stop the bacteria from fixing oxygen until they use up the oxygen in that zone, then once again they will fix nitrate. When doing this flushing no air can ever be aloud to get in thier, Which is easy to accomplish.

Nikki I love it This is the way good things happen, no more here has monitary motives (no books to write or speaking engagements) this keeps the conversation pure, we have folks from many different schools of thought all putting in thier knowledge, it dont get better then this.
I think Doug will agree this reminds me alot of the old days.

Mike

 

[Scooterman]

Originally posted by mojoreef
Scoot, sorry I am lost abit here. Are you talking about the sand clumping together or waste clumping together???

Mike

YES!.........Clean sand won't clump right?
YES~~~~~Will waste clump anyway, maybe just smaller more managable clumps?

 

[NaH2O]

Originally posted by mojoreef

Nikki I love it This is the way good things happen, no more here has monitary motives (no books to write or speaking engagements) this keeps the conversation pure, we have folks from many different schools of thought all putting in thier knowledge, it dont get better then this.
I think Doug will agree this reminds me alot of the old days.
Mike

I couldn't agree more, Mike.

On the thought of having a drain....I think that this would work better than having the pipe...IMO, you would get rid of more sediment (that happened to make its way down) this way.

 

[Cougra]

Alright, I hope you don’t mind me jumping in here and asking a few questions and making a couple comments:

As I understand things, there is a problem with aragonite based substrates binding phosphates (along with other undesirable things). In a plenum, there is an acidic layer that will slowly dissolves the substrate helping maintain the calcium levels in the tank. Would this not release the phosphates back into the water to do more damage?

As for adding a drain system to the bottom layer of the plenum, how effective would that really be? Wouldn’t you need a strong current to ensure that the debris gets pulled into the drain? My concern is that the debris has had time to settle on the bottom of the tank and wont want to move very easily. Wont draining the bottom layer of the plenum compromise the buffering/calcium adding abilities of the plenum? Not everyone has a calcium reactor and this would increase the need for supplements, thus effectively eliminating one of the potential benefits of this system.

Nikki: I believe Mikes original idea was to have a PH at the top of the tube to suck out the debris from the bottom of the system. This would allow you to determine how fast you would pull the water out of the bottom of the plenum and possibly answer my concern about the strength of flow to remove the debris if you have a powerful enough pump.

Lastly, to help prevent the substrate from compacting from rocks sitting on top of it, wouldn’t it be advisable to have the rockwork sit on a rack system suspended slighting off the substrate? This would allow you to have optimal water flow all over the tank leaving little room for dead spots, no pressure to compact the substrate, and maximum surface area in the tank. It would also allow you access to stir up the substrate to allow the debris to move to the bottom of the plenum, which will then be sucked out with the new drain system that we installed. (Once we get that drain working right.)

 

[Scooterman]

I think a good PH can Suck the plenum really good, ever take off an under gravel filter you would know what I mean.
I'm thinking if I can get the pieces together, set up a 10g tank with an UGF installed in this manner! Hummm!