Jaubert Plenum

[mojoreef]

Nick I really like these talks to. When reefers start thinking good things happen. helps me to.
Nick I have my perfered method of filtration in my tank, i'm not pushing the plenum just trying to bring out the facts so if someone decides to run one they get all the info they need.


Scooter could be, but I guess you could look at it from a different view and say if the power went out that dsb would suck the oxygen out of that 55 in a heart beat, lol

you know I luv ya man.

Mike

 

[Scooterman]

When I lost power in my 30g, it went 4 days & everything lived. I didn't do anything to it, heck I wasn't there, and Hurricane Lily took over! I was expecting to hear that BTW.....

 

[VINA DEL MAR]

Scott A. you took the words off my mouth!First of all these systems never warned reefers in case of power loss,it is only a short time before disaster strikes.Anaerobic bacteria wil soon run out of nitrates(uses it to breath)and your tank DSB will produce toxic hydrogen sulfide.1 inch of aerobic nitrifying bacteria and 6 inches of heteotrophic(ana)bacteria,are these systems worth or what? :columbo:

 

[mojoreef]

LOL Scoot you know me to well.

Hi Vina good to see ya in our little talk. On the bacteria the bacteria tha converts nitrate is actually faculative and will change from nitrates to Oxygen consumsion (which they perfer), this will excellerate oxygen depervation. From their on the rest and on the bacteria that only live in anaerobic is true.

Mike

 

[Maxx]

Vina, good to see you. I enjoyed the few discussions we had on the other board.
Mike,
Okay, I understand you're not pushing the plenum, but wouldnt a brief synopsis of the discussion help to clarify some things?
Plenums require larger surface area that isnt covered/compressed by rock to function properly. A light bio load is also indicated by this system since it "moves" slowly in converting nitrates to harmelss compounds when compared to a DSB. This plenum should be in the neighborhood of 1-3 inches deep, and covered in at least as much substrate which should be courser than crushed coral. This plenum should also be light tight, (unavailable to light exposure) in order to prevent the possibility of algal growth which would ruin the plenums purpose by releasing O2 as a by product. Hows that so far?
But can we use a hybrid system if we want a larger bio-load and want to put a little more rock in the tank? Say a plenum that we know isnt going to be as effective due to tank stocking levels, and rock content, but hook up a macro algae fuge for nutrient export in addition to what the plenum is doing? Can we adequately design a system, knowing that we are going to hamper its abilities by choice, but "make up for it" by running something else in addition to it?
Nick

 

[mojoreef]

Hmmm good summery and good questions..now whos making who think, lol.
Ok heres my view. Because of the size of the particles thier is less surface, but really knowing that baacteria level will rise and fall with the detritus input, I dont know if thier is as big a difference in nitrification and dentirfication, or if thier was would it make much of a difference??
On the rest of the question sure you can. In the wild thier no one filtration system, its a series of hundreds of types of filters.

Mike

 

[VINA DEL MAR]

Max and Mike of my experience with plenum systems is that two different substrates should be use.Crate first,some source of nylon screen,small size sand and bigger sand or crushed coral to top off the filter,(remember this is a filter).As far of ligths it should be strong and so is water flow to maintain supersaturation of oxigen above the plate.Before I forget to mention is that the sand must also be live sand to start with a good amount of bacteria.These systems should not be disturbe at any time by fish or other marinelife and expose anaerobic bacteria.This type of filter also has limitations as far of overstocking our tanks and in case of acccidental overfeeding.Why?because these type of filters are very slow bio-load reducers.Then(you are right about this Maxx)by having any extra filters we will deprived our tank plenum system of nutrients.The same goes to have macro algae as a way to export organic matters.We will talk some more about this later and thank you Mike and Maxx for giving all these information to all the reefers here!! you guys are teaching us a lot.VINA

 

[mojoreef]

We all learn together. Ok time to twist things up a bit.lol
I want to throw couple of thoughts past you folks. Now one of the cons of a sand substriaght is the slow and eventualy loss of the areobic zone (oxygenated zone) do to things build and cloging. If we were to go large particle size say double of cc. we could keep the majority of the plenum oxygenated through waterflow (energy). This combo of highly oxygenated water and flow would create a great enviroment for critters, which perfer rocky substraights, and would still provide a good base for areobic bacteria to perform nitrification (ammonia to nitrate). Now under the plenum is for two things one for denitrification and for the melting of sand particles to replenish elements. Ok now on the above system the plenum zone is void of anything but the low ph water. So what if prior to set up we install some simple piping (say 1/2 pipes) that have holes drilled in them, we run thre or four pipes the length of the under plenum area. we bring it up to one central fitting that exits the plenum space and comes up about the water level of the remote plenum. So now it goes in to use water below the plenum begins to drop in ph and the anareobic zone is formed and fuctions, the well airated upper zone has high energy and is kept areobic. we add some of the critters (worms/snails maybe a cuke or two and so on). We over load the system, as in Its smaller then the tank but the tank has the heavy bioload. The system will still perform nitrification and critter action and water flow will force the extra waste down to the anaerobic zone along with all the other non processable goods. This will create a build up in the lower plenum zone over time.....BUT..we got the lower zone plumbed. Once every six months or so to beat the build up we shut off the plenum from the tank system. we manually stir up the top bed causeing even more waste to sift down to the anaerobic zone. then we tank a PH and suck all the water out of the lower plenum area. and thus suck out all of the build up.
OK this is what will happen. the areobic zone will be cleared and pobibly wont miss a beet, no bugs/larvae and so on will be lost as we are doing no direct syphoning of the upper plenum area the inhabit. We will loose an ammount of our anaerobic bacteria but since they are fuculative they will just convert oxygen instead of nitrate until that areas oxygen is reduced. then they will be back in biz. now thier will be a time of no nitrate reduction but we have to remember that we have also cleared the upper area so it will taake some time for the upper bacteria to actualy produce nitrate.
HMMMMMMMmmmmmm??????? whatcha think????


Mike

 

[Maxx]

Mike,
is this basically what you're talking about?

 

[NaH2O]

Nick, that's how I pictured it.

Mike, do you think when the water gets sucked out an eventual mini cycle in the tank would be created, while waiting for the bacteria to get back to their "normal" anaerobic state?

 

[Scooterman]

Mike, I would almost have to set up a Mini system and try that out to see how effective it really would be. It would have to be automated as to where when adding the PH to suck the water out, doesn't become a big hassle, which I'm guessing not. It would take detailed design to make sure the requirements are met to specifications, then It will need to run long term, after successful short term use, loading it down also. If you want to make it work, you first need to have recorded plans, and you must stick to the documented plans in order to see what happens, if you have to make changes necessary to keep the system from crashing then you basically developed a new system. Once the details are ironed out, I see no reason why it won't work as Documented an long term but first the unknowns must be found and cures must be installed as part of the system and documented. Once proven long term under loaded conditions, you can sell your system as a derivative of Pentiums that are regenerated on a regular basis.
Amen!

 

[mojoreef]

Yea Nick something like that. Now thier woldnt be just one tube under though you want to have a couple so you can make sure you get all the detritus. Just one output pipe though.

NIkki a cycle is what we call the establishment of various forms of bacteria. In this case the bacteria in the areobic zone I dont believe will be affected, the nitrification end of the cycle is still live. In the anaerobic zone we will be giving that bacterial population a hit. but thier still should be a decent population left. Basically the ones that are attached to the various surfaces. However they will be converted to deriving thier respiration from oxygen instead of nitrate for a bit. The "Bit" will be however long it takes for the plenum space to go devoid of oxygen. Shouldnt be to long???

MIke

 

[mojoreef]

LOL Scott I was just pming you to get your butt over here and give me your opinion..your ears must have been burning.
I here ya on your post, and you know I just may put this into play. Here is my reasoning, give me your opinions.
One of the main concepts of a DSB is the fine sand, more surface area= more bacteria. But this fine sand also goes anaerobic quickly for the same reason and is realy relient on critters for migration of various elements (ie to get food down and nitrogen gas up) this is hard to do with a finer particle sand. But if the particles are larger water flow itself could play a big part. For me in a dsb system everything from that first layer of sand in the anaerobic zone is a waste as this is where the build up occurs and the nastier forms of bacteria live. Wth the suck out, you could beat that.
ORP testing could be done at various stages to test for how the reducing power is building and maintaining. then how long it would take to regenerate the anaerobic zone after the sucking part.

On a conceptual level do you see any flaws???

MIke

 

[Flatlander]

If I may.

I wonder if the remote system, now promoted by the plenum writers, is not getting away from Jauberts original idea and some of the first plenum articles, like Tom Miller,s Easy Reef. To me, thats the ideal situation for a plenum, to simplify a reef system.

If using a plenum,[remote], for just nitrate reduction or assisting in biological filtration, why not just use calerpa. More functional, IMO.

I also wonder about its ability to maintain calcium levels, which according to some is still possible. That would be an unbelievable benefit.

Why run a plenum in a system that has as some authors now have, a large calcium reactor, large skimmers, etc, etc. Systems with that equipment, operate just fine without a tub full of gravel.

As for the gravel size question, I would not use two sizes, but a larger size gravel. After talking with Sprung on this, I would just do a plenum with the old crushed coral we used in the 70,s and 80,s. Its closer to 4mm to 5mm size, and would allow for a better water movement through the plenum. Of course the plenum requires a good 4in. or so of this gravel, to the bottom low in oxygen content. At the worst, I would use something like Carib-Sea Geo Marine crushed coral.

More later.

 

[Scooterman]

Actually from reading, bacteria of different types they thrive on different size particles, all my reading form Ron's studies was specified as a ratio of super fine(silt) to very course sand. You can't have a true DSB filter without all the levels of sand, most people use a general sized sand, which in my belief is wrong and you must reach different variations to populate with a more varied bacteria to do a through job, first and foremost, also we must supply this bacteria, which isn't as easy as dropping in a bag of live sand. If done properly the sand will stir itself every day depending on the amount of populated bacteria, dependent on food. Jagged edged sand will house more than the smooth rounded sand. You will have this coarse sand, & sucking out the end product will be beneficial very much so, because as you stated it all has to go somewhere. As for as worries of regeneration, the process is done correctly will repopulate overnight(so speaking)! The major flaw in a DSB/plenum is removal of accumulated by-product. The amount to removal should be proportional to input, there is no way it will all just disappear, even burned off as energy as produced heat, the most of it is still collectable waste. The problem I have with it stirring the DSB/plenum substrate. I find a flaw in his saying not to disturb the surface. His theory is the critters move it, if properly built. I say yes true, but if so why is there long term clumping? So they don't turn over the accumulated waste, then what happens? I never had a crash from sucking up my DSB, not all at once only sections. I think his findings and study is factual but his ideas of how it should be maintained is incorrect & proven to not work as planned. The correction could be in a system such as yours but someone will have to develop it.

 

[NaH2O]

Alright...here's a question, and maybe I'm just missing something....with the bigger sized substrate, it's possible that some waste matter would travel down into the plenum space. Now, my question is - if these "wastes" would settle on the very bottom and NOT get taken out with the water (when it came time to remove it) then what would occur? Would there be any way to agitate the settled material in order to take it out with the water, would it be fine sitting down there, or would it create problems once the water was removed? Maybe I am way off base?

 

[Scooterman]

Your not off base, rubble that size will allow chunks of fish poo get to the mesh netting, even through it some.

 

[mojoreef]

Doug great to have you involved thanks.
I think Jeauberts concept is for a completely diferent idea. The Monaco aquarium is actually producing corals for replantation in the wild. Not so much as a fish and coral reefs as we keep.
On the calurpa, I am not a big fan of that, with all the alleochemicals and the risk of sexual is just not worth it to me, but that is just me. Plus calurpas cant break it down like bacteria can.

Why run a plenum in a system that has as some authors now have, a large calcium reactor, large skimmers, etc, etc. Systems with that equipment, operate just fine without a tub full of gravel.

Yes that is true for sure, but the denitrifing could be a good plus, also the larval, nekton, and such production is something alot of folks are looking for.
I agree with you on the gravel size to. If I remember your displa tank has a substriaght like that right????


Mike

 

[mojoreef]

Actually from reading, bacteria of different types they thrive on different size particles

Scoot he is just wrong on that. bacteria will populate on anything as long as the enviroment is correct, ie, correct water parameters and food source. Here is how they line up.
>aerobes predominate initially, because oxygen inhibits nitrate and sulfate reduction
>facultative anaerobes begin to predominate as oxygen concentration decreases
>anaerobes predominate when oxygen is exhausted and fermentation products (hydrogen, organic acids) accumulate
iron or manganese) reducers (Shewanella) predominate at first
>nitrate reducers (Pseudomonas, etc.) predominate next
>sulfate reducers (Desulfovibrio, etc.) predominate next, because they compete better for hydrogen than methanogens (but only if the sulfate concentration is high)
>carbon dioxide reducers (methanogens) predominate after the sulfate supply is exhausted

I am trying to stay away from the fine particles. The reason fine particles are used is to maximise surface population. I am willing to sacrifice an ammount in order to not have to worry about clogging. Also remember bacteria will not only populate the sand particle but also the organics and waste particles that inhabit the spaces inbetween the sand particles. I dont want to base any system on someone that can keep one up and running himself, so i am not to worried about Ron. The biology is the biology. Scoot you are dead on about populating the bacteria and instaling critters.

Nikki good thought. I dont know if that is a good thing or a bad. Lets follow the path of the food. Food is dumped in the main tank, most of the larger particles are uptaken by fish or gravity forces them down to the bootom of the tank where other scavengers wil get them. The balance of any uneaten food will go down the overflow and say directly or indirectly into plenum tank. Larger particles would stick in the gravel, but I believe those would be the ones that the larger critters (ie worms, snails, pods cukes conches and so on) would go after right away. What ever happened to make its way past all that and end up in the plenum, would sit thier, probibly would be attacked by Methagene bacteria. But if you had good enough holes in the pipes I think it could be succked out no problemo

 

[Flatlander]

Hi Mike, Me thinks we did this before.

I just use Jaubert as an example of how the idea came about and what its purpose was. Same as I mentioned about Miller,s article.

I use Geo Marine crushed coral and rubble for a substrate in the front of my tank. I still have several inches of mixed dsb in the back, because of my leopard wrasse.

If you remember, when some of the more educated than I , were in the threads we had previous on this, I offered up my 225 as a test tank when I was redoing things because of the flatworm wars. Nobody seemed to interested in taking me up on it though.

Regarding gravel size, yes one would think the crap would filter through and clog the plenum screen. Same as for the disolution of the gravel by the lower ph. However, it seems this does not happen in a correctly built system.

This article in Advanced Aquarist was pretty interesting,
http://advancedaquarist.com/issues/sept2002/feature.htm