in_a_days' saltwater adventure

[in_a_days]

Clean up crew right now includes 2 Turbo Snails, 2 Nassarius Snails and maybe half a dozen hermit crabs. Also the LR hitchhiking Brittle Star. I actually have another half dozen or so hermits. But I tossed them in the 10 gallon after reading several threads here on the board. I'm going to try to give most of them away, or just take them to the LFS (I got most of them for free anyways). I have a really nice looking Electric Blue Hermit Crab which I plan to keep in the main tank. I don't know if that description on liveaquaria is just marketing hype, or if these guys really are better than your average hermit crab. But it's a really really pretty crab. He'll either be in there by himself or with one other hermit, max.

And just a couple additional details...

I am running a Penguin Bio-wheel 350 for filtration and a Maxijet 900 powerhead for circulation.

 

[in_a_days]

Here's another shot of my lion

And my Mantis tank arrived today. :whstlr:

Just need to go pick up some live rock rubble and a little more sand and I should be good to go.

But that'll have to wait as I'm going on an ice fishin' trip to Utah this weekend. :laugh:

 

[ReefGuy69]

Hmmm you might have just pinpointed your nitrate problem... It might be your biowheel. If im not mistaken the wheel can be a nitrate factory. Isnt it just a carboard or felt thingy that rotates like a paddle wheel in the water and then out. Just a thought. i may be way out in left field or i may have struck the gold mine when it comes to your problem. I like the lion fish tho. really cool. i always wanted one but am scared of getting stung. Im deathly allergic to bees so i can imagine he would do the same to me.

 

[in_a_days]

Hmmm you might have just pinpointed your nitrate problem... It might be your biowheel. If im not mistaken the wheel can be a nitrate factory. Isnt it just a carboard or felt thingy that rotates like a paddle wheel in the water and then out. Just a thought. i may be way out in left field or i may have struck the gold mine when it comes to your problem. I like the lion fish tho. really cool. i always wanted one but am scared of getting stung. Im deathly allergic to bees so i can imagine he would do the same to me.

Just found a very interesting discussion about that very topic here...

Seems like there is a lack of consensus.

 

[ReefGuy69]

Yeah well i read it as well and have heard both sides. But the common concensus seems to be is yes they can harbor nitrates but that it still is beneficial to your system.. I would say do your own experiement. Take it off for 30 days and test.. see for youself. then you will truly now.

 

[Paul B]

Anything that is called a "nitrate factory" in this hobby is actually a good thing. It means that the ammonia created by the animals is being converted to nitrate very fast. Nitrate is there because it used to be ammonia before it was converted. Ammonia is very toxic and it is an irritant to the fish.
The problem is that you don't have enough anerobic bacteria to convert the nitrate to nitrogen gas so it can be eliminated.
THe bacteria that convert ammonia develop very fast, with in days which is the reason nitrate levels are high in a new tank. Anerobic bacteria take longer, maybe three months to be able to process the nitrate but these bacteria always lag behind the ammonia (or actually nitrite) reducers. The big problem is that as soon as you put water in a tank, all of the available spaces will be colonized by bacteria but not necessarilly the bacteria that we want. It takes a few months for the beneficial bacteria to colonize those spaces.
Wet dry filters are very efficient, thats why they are called nitrate factories as are bio wheels. If you use these devices coupled with an efficient way to remove the nitrate, you would have the best system of all.
DSB's have very little capacity to convert ammonia but they are good at nitrate conversion due to their lower levels of oxygen. We need both, nitrate factories and nitrate eliminators.

 

[Octoman]

I don't want to threadjack too much, but I disagree about "nitrate factories". The bacteria that grow on bioballs or biowheels do a great job of converting ammonia and nitrite, however, bacteria growing on live rock and in sand can do just as good of a job and are in a location where the nitrates can be further processed in anaerobic areas of the rock or sand bed without having to be released into the water column. I take care of a 150 that was a nitrate nightmare until I took the bioballs out.

Just my opinion though, but I say an adequate amount of live rock can completely eliminate the need for biowheels, bioballs, etc... I've never used them on my tank at home and never had problems with ammonia, nitrites, or nitrates.

 

[lcstorc]

Beautiful lion. I am glad things are going better for you.
I don't think I would add rubble to the decoration. The rubble will likely trap detrius from the lion and befome a problem unless you vacuum and clean it regularly. Looks like things are headed in the right direction with the addition of more LR. At least in the pics it doesn't look like the algae is that bad. Keep up on the water changes and it should go away.

 

[Paul B]

Octoman, I actually agree with everything you said. It is better to grow the bacteria on rock and sand because these things also harbor anerobic bacteria to further convert nitrate.
Anyway, where was that picture taken in your Avitar? It looks familiar.
Paul

 

[Octoman]

Octoman, I actually agree with everything you said. It is better to grow the bacteria on rock and sand because these things also harbor anerobic bacteria to further convert nitrate.

I also stressed an adequate amount of live rock. If there is not enough surface area on the rock, then an efficient wet/dry filter such as a biowheel would be very important to remove deadly ammonia. So I agree that we are in agreement

Anyway, where was that picture taken in your Avitar? It looks familiar.
Paul

Coco Plum Caye, Belize
We went last year, it was spectacular!


In_a_days, sorry to go off on a tangent in your thread, but I think we covered an important point for you. Removing the biowheel may help with nitrates, however, if you don't have an adequate amount of bacteria on your rock, it could cause a spike in deadly ammonia and nitrites. If you decide to remove it, proceed with caution and test frequently... And, I love the lionfish, I used to have dwarf lions and leaf fish, they are some of my favorite fish!

 

[Paul B]

Octoman, I am glad we agree. I have been to Belize but that hut on the right looked like Bora Bora.

 

[tbittner]

My opinion of what "nitrate factory" means is that food/waste collects on that item. The food/waste decays and actually puts a load on your bio filter (LR, LS, etc.) and it (bacteria on the LR, LS) efficiently converts the ammonia to nitrites, and then to nitrates. wola! Nitrate factory...

Just my opinion though.

 

[in_a_days]

Yo, just got back in town. No need to apologize for any threadjacking. I really appreciate discussion between people who know more about the hobby than I do. Particularly when it applies directly to my tank and set-up. I plan to leave the biowheels in for now. My nitrates have never tested higher than 40, and with regular water changes I'm not too concerned about the health of the fish.

After the 'fuge is set up and Mantis Tank is done, replacing some of my lava base rock with live rock is my top priority.

I'm going to pick up some rubble for the Mantis Tank per the advice of the board guru. I was actually a little concerned 'cause I haven't seen the little guy in almost a week. But I've heard some of the telltale clicking sounds coming from my tank tonight so I know he's in there somewhere. :bouncebox

Thanks for the compliments on the lion! I really like him a lot. I swear he knows his feeding days and gets very active whenever he sees me during the day. Whenever my fingers/arm goes into the tank he always retreats to the futhest possible corner and posts up until I'm done.

I use a long plastic stirring spoon to encourage him to move when he gets in the way. He doesn't really like it and always turns his spines towards the spoon. But he also gets the message and relocates. And I know he doesn't hold a grudge 'cause as soon as I'm done working he's at the front of the tank begging for food.

 

[in_a_days]

Well hey I'm kind of excited right now. I ordered some of this live sand from ebay and received it late last week. I added 1"-2" to my main tank and used most the rest for the mantis tank.

When I put it in it just looked like regular sand. Very nice clean sand, very white and tiny. But I certainly didn't see any visible signs of macro organisms.

So tonight I was just scoping over my tank with like a red laser flashlight kinda thing that a lot of inverts don't seem to react to. And I noticed a very small slug looking thing* crawling over a small coral skeleton. On the glass right next to it I noticed a tiny spot with tiny wiry filaments and immediately recognized it as a pic I've seen here of a micro star. I kept looking and found a small white worm wriggling on the surface of the sand and in several places along the front of the tank I have small groups of pods strolling along the glass. I've never seen any of the critters in my tank before, nor have I added anything other than the 10lbs of live rock to introduce micro and macro organisms to the tank (before the sand of course).

So bottom line, I'm stoked because it's my understanding that these are very beneficial critters. And anybody looking for some quality live sand would do well to give this stuff a try.

* - EDIT: After checking the Hitchhiker ID forum I'm 99.9% sure it's a Stomatella Snail.

 

[in_a_days]

Picked up four pounds of pre-cured premium Fiji live rock for the Mantis Tank. It looks good, but I think I want a couple more pounds before I call it complete. I'm also gonna add a couple shiny colored rocks and sea glass as I've read that these guys can be enamored by little trinkets. I actually saw him again yesterday and he ate some krill off the feeding stick. He must have just molted 'cause like I said previously, I didn't see him for almost a week, and he looks slightly larger and more colorful than the last time I saw him.

The tank is showing detectable Nitrite and right now there are no critters except the hermit crabs I'm getting rid of. Another pound or two of live rock then a quick transplant (after it's cycled of course) of the little guy and this project should be essentially complete.

Next up... 'fuge! :whstlr:

 

[lcstorc]

Sound like everything is progressing nicely. I like the way you are taking it step by step.
I was just reading about Mantis Shrimp last night and it was recommended to keep them in a species tank so it sounds like you have a really good plan. From what I have read the hermits will not last long in with a mantis so you might be better off leaving them there as food.

 

[BigAl07]

I ditto hermit = food

 

[in_a_days]

Very good, the hermits will stay.

Picked up a couple more pounds of live rock and I think the tank is pretty much set. Just waiting to complete cycling now.

 

[in_a_days]

It's feeding day for the lion. He saw me take the silversides out of the freezer and now he's pacing the front of the tank. He'll be there till he gets food, pretty amusing.

And I tested the Mantis tank for Ammonia and Nitrite.

Ammonia = .25 ppm
Nitrite = 0

I had .25 ppm of Nitrite yesterday so I know it's already being produced and consumed. The Mantis is still very small and seems very attached to the rock he's in (which I just intend to transplant) so I'm not in a hurry to get him moved over. When I'm sure everything is fully cycled I'll make the move. Until then I guess I just have to count the seconds. :smirk:

EDIT: My freakin' lion just tried to eat a hermit crab... never seen that one before. He just nipped at a rock real quick... coughed and twitched a couple times, then spit it back out... That was pretty silly.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Paul B hit the nail on the head. Your nitrates are due to biological overload.