Ich - Treat early with no test or wait?

[PSU4ME]

Hi Lee,
I'm hoping you can give me some advice. I cannot get a copper test locally so I ordered one. I can get cupramine though. I've read through your articles and I'm wondering what you think the best course of action is......start the copper treatment by following the directions for dosing or wait to start it until I can test? The test will be in Thursday or Friday but i'm not certain if the little guy will make it until then (he is pretty active now though). I know the cooper has to be around .30ppm to be effective so I'm not sure how effective it will be without the test.....

I've had him in QT for 2.5 weeks now but last night I say enough evidence that he has ich......and this morening it was confirmed.

Thoughts?

 

[leebca]

An overdose could be fatal; and underdose does not cure. However, if you can carefully and accurately calculate the quantity needed, then also carefully and accurately measure what you add, then you are 'safe' for the time being.

Assuming the QT is setup in a standard way (no carbonates, substrates, rock, etc.) and you accurately measure out the Cupramine, you should be fine until you get the test kit. You'd like to have the test kit right after the second additon to check the level, so you have two days to actually need the kit.

 

[PSU4ME]

Thanks Lee. I think I should be able to measure it accurately and it is a "Lee certified" QT tank so I think i am going to give it a shot. If I have 2 days until I NEED a test kit, I'll have to put my trust ibn UPS......worst case scenario is it shows up on Friday but I'm working from home so I'll get to it ASAP.

Cupramine was picked up today so I will start the first dose tonight.

Thank you!

 

[GrendelPrime]

hope everything works out and keep us posted

 

[PSU4ME]

So I don't understand what's going on......the clown has no more spots but 2 days ago I was "convinced" he had ich. Should I treat him anyway? he eats like a monster and is super active.

What do you guys think?

 

[DaveK]

Please see this thread - http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/57175-fish-white-spots-went-away.html

Title tells all.

 

[PSU4ME]

Well there ya go.....Thanks Dave! I've been traveling and haven't had time to be as thorough as I would like. Copper test comes in tomorrow so i'll star ramping up the cupramine today.


Thanks

 

[jpsika08]

Remember, 1ml per 10 gallons, wait 24 hrs and dose again, I'm almost certain you will be on the "Safe Zone" with two doses. Though, if you get the copper test kit first much better.

 

[PSU4ME]

Thanks Juan......the little guy got his first dose but I swear nothing can slow this guy down, he is a maniac and he eats like crazy......takes it out of the tweezers before it hits the water!

I got him so thta he mingles with my other clown who is shy......I hope it works!

 

[dmatt88]

Dude ur doing great. Plus the clowns r ich rockstars. Im sometimes convinced either of mine could live in a mud puddle for a few days if necessary. Their tough. N this is coming from a guy who can kill anything reef. Party on bryan.

Matts DROIDX via Tapatalk

 

[PSU4ME]

Thanks Matt.....I'm not "too" worried about him because he is super healthy and active. I give him food soaked in zoecon and vitamins so he should have the strength to fight anything off. I just didn't want to have to introduce copper into anything since he wil be my lastg fish but oh well, now I have a copper bucket, net and siphon hose

 

[leebca]

A marine fish cannot fight off an obligate parasite (like Marine Ich). You should read these typical myths of MI: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html

Knowing the 'enemy' is your best weapon to start the fight and end it in your favor.

 

[PSU4ME]

Thanks Lee.....I think I'm read up now and treating the fish correctly. I'll repost should anything go wacky on me but i'm under good guidance

 

[yankieman]

may i ask a question of lee here ? has he heard of copper safe and if so is it ok to use instead of cupramine ?

 

[PSU4ME]

Ask Away AL East Clincher!

 

[DaveK]

While we are on the subject of disease and clownfish, also keep a lookout for Brooklynella. It's very common among clowns, especially wild caught ones, and clowns that have been kept with wild caught ones. It's a similar parasitic disease, but the treatment is different. Here are a couple of links (offsite) -
Brooklynella
Brooklynella

Be sure your not dealing with this disease.

 

[leebca]

I don't have anything positive to report about CopperSafe. My colleagues recommend against it claiming it too harsh on fishes. Some, especially the more sensitive species have been killed by this, according to others.

I have no personal experience with it, however Cupramine is so much better in formulation that it stands in a class all of its own. Worth ordering on the Internet if your local LFS doesn't or won't carry it.

 

[jpsika08]

Also, I think some users have expressed problems with aquarium silicone seals using other Copper brands, Seachem states that Cupramine doesn't harm these, also, I think removing it from the system is easier than the other copper products.

Lee, quick question, if using Cuprasorb after the treatment mixed with carbon, will this remove 100% of Cupramine trace and this aquarium can be used (After a mild cleaning) for invertebrates? thanks.

 

[leebca]

Very unfortunately, the solid answer is "No."

The copper test kit will show non detected or zero, but that is because low concentrations of copper are not detected by the test kits. The test kits were made to control elevated concentrations of copper, not for very small concentration identification, nor even able to say whether copper is present or not. So the test kit can't help after cleaning a tank.

Next, absorbants (including name-brand products, and activated carbon) cannot remove copper stuck to the things inside the aquarium.

What has been learned is that copper atoms attach to everything -- glass, plastics, the inside deocrations/PVC tubes for fish (in a QT), etc. Until that fine layer of copper is removed, the tank and equipment is not copper-free.

Now the question comes up if there is enough copper present to harm invertebrates. The answer is clear here, too, "Possibly." First, this stuck copper does become unstuck, slowly, over time, infecting the tank again and yet, still below the detecting ability of a test kit.

It depends on the amount 'leached' back off the stuck places, and the copper tolerance of the invert. Some can't handle even a tiny amount of copper and won't survive the exposure. Some may survive the exposure only to have their life shortened considereably from the poisoning. Others may be unaffected. There aren't enough studies, nor monies to support such studies on our ornamental marine invertebrates, to say which invert is and which isn't going to be affected.

My personal preference would be to take no chances; don't 'waste' marine life trying to find out; and just do the recommended cleaning.

There is a process you can use to get this fine layer of copper out, yet you don't have a way (test) to prove it is clean. That process is given here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/31684-tank-cleanup-procedures.html

Even using the above process, I'd still replace sponge filters, hosing, tubing, etc. which aren't worth the risk nor effort to clean. Don't forget the other option -- just dedicate this system for the QT of fishes and use another for inverts.

 

[PSU4ME]

I've dedicated all my stuff to the QT system.....2 buckets, a net, siphon hose, pippet, and a syringe. What I didn't dedicate is a pair of feeding tongs that I use to feed....i think they are ok.

I've have extra stuff (I assume Juan has a backup for his backup) so this is the easiest ans safest.

BTW, my clown looks good and unphased after the second addition of copper.....he is a trooper!