I lost my Powder Brown Tang

[Tuscaquatics]

He started getting white specks on him after I got him. I assumed it was ich. So I talked to the guy at my LFS a couple times and he told me that it wasn't ich, but something else that the tangs get from stress, especially the powder browns/blues and even more so in the white face variety. He told me that as long as he was eating well to leave him alone and it should go away on its own. It kept getting worse and, on Saturday, I went back up there to buy a cleaner shrimp. The guy talked me out of it and told me to ride it out for a couple more weeks. So I went along. Well, the specks got worse over the last couple days and he died Monday. I tried dipping him in freshwater but it didn't help; he was too far gone.

Then, to top it off, my mandarin died tonight. He was floating around and my stupid damsel kept picking on him. He didn't show any signs of ich, externally anyway. I think that he was in bad shape when I got him and he finally succumbed. The LFS where I got the mandarin had him in a tank with zero pods so I brought him home to try and rescue him.

I feel like a total a-hole. I've been doing freshwater tanks for over 15 years and I've never had a fish die un-naturally. This is beyond depressing. The tank just isn't the same without my tang. I can barely even look at it now.

Now the question is what to do for the future. I probably need to quarantine my other fish, which now consists of a lawnmower blenny and one stupid damsel. Can I just put them in a 10-gallon and treat them in there? Then can I leave my coral and other inverts in the DT and let it run fallow for a while? Help me out guys, I'm a wreck.

 

[teacampuzano]

Well, the good thing is you didn't get a cleaner shrimp. Sure, they'll help with specs outside the protective mucus but ich is inside the mucus so it really wouldn't have helped. In my personal opinion, if you want to keep nice looking fish, get rid of the damsel. I started out with 3, one killed my favorite and that was it with them. I'm really sorry to hear about your tang, but a 10g refuge may be a little small and may cause a bit more stress to the blenny and cause the damsel to get more territorial.
I read it's better to treat the show tank as a whole to try to get rid of the ich there. Be careful to what you use, some medications will affect your coral, snails, etc...
Currently I'm trying ich cure which is malachite green, which doesn't affect coral..AS MUCH. Definitely treat them, otherwise you may lose another one.

I know exactly how you feel, I'm feeling pretty down myself because my zoa, hammer and frogspawn don't look good due to the 3 day dose of medication and the fact I can't do the water change yet.:evileye: Tomorrow I'll be able to change my water, but ich will still need to be treated because my tang still shows signs of ich. The normal life span of ich is 60 days, and just because we don't see the 'white sand dots', doesn't mean its gone.

I'm no expert, so if anyone has any other suggestions to how to cure ich, besides copper bath, let me know.
Keep me updated on how you're doing.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Actually, the mandarin is still alive. He's floating around on his back on the surface. It's been a couple hours now and I don't know what I can do for him. He doesn't look to have any damage. Could the damsel have injured him? This is friggin' nerve-wracking.

 

[BLAKEJOHN]

Copper or Hyposalinity is how you treat for ich. This is only done in a QT. Never treat the DT with and medications for ich.

 

[TylerHaworth]

Sounds like the mandarin is starving, malachite green treats FW ich and not SW ich, if I recall correctly.

 

[TylerHaworth]

Also, you need to stop listening to your LFS... Never let a fish with ich "ride it out" it WILL eventually die

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Sounds like the mandarin is starving, malachite green treats FW ich and not SW ich, if I recall correctly.

Well, he was eating in my tank, but I think he was too far gone when I got him to bring him back.

And for the LFS, like I said, he claimed it wasn't ich, but basically just a "stress parasite" other than ich that tangs get.

 

[TylerHaworth]

If he argued that it was not ich, what did he say that it was other than a "stress parasite?"

I'd wager quite a bit that he doesn't know. Because it was ich.

 

[BigAl07]

Then, to top it off, my mandarin died tonight. He was floating around and my stupid damsel kept picking on him. He didn't show any signs of ich, externally anyway. I think that he was in bad shape when I got him and he finally succumbed. The LFS where I got the mandarin had him in a tank with zero pods so I brought him home to try and rescue him.

Sorry about your recent losses! that sucks!

As for your mandarin it didn't show signs of ICH because it didn't have ich. Due to their skin composition and an oily secretion they don't get it.

These fish don't get Ich as they secrete an oily substance on their bodies. Their skin type and the oils secreted make them extremely sensitive to many medications. What may heal one species will more than likely kill a mandarin. So if your other fish develop ich, the mandarin is not to be put in to quarantine. Which is fortunate because it would starve to death if you did, assuming the medication didn't kill it first.

Odds are he was indeed to far gone. That's a tough one to get under grasp and have a positive turn around. For the most part once you notice their decline they've already passed the point of no return.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Sorry about your recent losses! that sucks!

As for your mandarin it didn't show signs of ICH because it didn't have ich. Due to their skin composition and an oily secretion they don't get it.


Odds are he was indeed to far gone. That's a tough one to get under grasp and have a positive turn around. For the most part once you notice their decline they've already passed the point of no return.

Not to be argumentative, and not that I think it's what happened, but I've read on WetWeb that they do indeed get ich. It's just that because of the slime coat, they don't exhibit the external symptoms that other fish do. But they still would have the parasite in their gills where you couldn't see it.

I think the mandarin was weakened by his time in the LFS tank and this stupid damsel attacked him in his weakened state. He didn't really show any trauma to his body, but based on the damsel's handiwork in the past, they attack other fish by sort of banging them around and against rocks. This is the last damsel I will ever mess with.

Now I'm just worried mainly about my blenny. If something happens to him, it will be the last straw. I've had him since the get go, and, with the tang gone, he's definitely the star of the tank.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

If he argued that it was not ich, what did he say that it was other than a "stress parasite?"

I'd wager quite a bit that he doesn't know. Because it was ich.

He said it was "hotly debated." All I know is that I probably won't mess with any big fish for a long time, at least not in this tank. I have a 120 gallon that I haven't set up yet that I plan on keeping triggers and puffers in. But that's a little while off for now, especially with the recent happenings.

 

[TylerHaworth]

In other words, he has no idea what he's talking about really... It was ich and it is in your tank : )

 

[theskunk]

first off im sorry to hear about your loss, and second im sorry to hear about the bad info from your lfs,as i work at a lfs. i have found that people tend to make things up if they dont know the answer so they dont look stupid. i myself am of the opinion that if you dont know the answer be honest. i myself am asked questions everyday that i dont know the answer to so i tell the customer that i dont know but i will research it and have an answer in a day or so and they can call the store or i can call them when i find out. this approach has gained me alot of knowledge as well as alot of loyal customers

 

[Tuscaquatics]

You guys are posting some great comments. Thanks for all the help.

It's hard to decide who to listen to. Everything I read online and everyone I talk to is so sure of themselves, though. I don't think they guy at the LFS was making anything up. I think he's pretty sure of what he was saying. He might be wrong, but I don't think he was making up an answer for lack of information. This hobby is full of opinionated people and, basically, I'm finding out that most of what they're saying is just that: opinion.

For instance: BigAl is saying that mandarins don't get ich. He's a moderator and I'm sure he's very experienced and knowledgeable. But this goes against everything else I've heard or read online. Now, if I listen to him and put another mandarin in there right away (which I most definitely am NOT) then I could end up with an ich-y mandarin. Then I'd come back on here and start a thread called 'My mandarin has ich!' And we'd argue back and forth about whether or not he has it, and how to treat it, and so forth.

So, basically, the only thing I've ever heard about this hobby that has been 100% correct is that water is wet. And I'm sure we could have a whole thread going to debate that.

Now, my original question is still up for debate: do I need to quarantine the blenny and damsel and run the DT with my inverts only? Or should I just keep an eye on the fish for now?

 

[leebca]

I am only responding to your most recent post. I have looked over (skimmed) the other posts and found them to be, for the most part, accurate.

The Mandarin has a unique defense to parasites that reside on and in the substrate. They do however become infected. You see, in captivity, they can easily lose that defense and become susceptible to Marine Ich parasites and others. Though in the wild you'd not likely find them infected with Marine Ich, in the captive life, they can and do get infected.

All fish exposed to Marine Ich at this time need to be removed from the display tank and put into quarantine. There they will be treated by one of the three known methods to cure them of Marine Ich. Don't worry about not seeing it -- they ARE infected. Treat them.

Let the main tank/system go fishless for no less than 8 weeks. The parasites there will die off without a fish host. Invertebrates can't breed the parasite, so they can stay in the display system. Add nothing (marine life, other tank water, plants, etc.) to the display tank during this time. Keep the tank going as it normally is. Keep temp, lighting, filtration, water changes, etc. all the same.

BTW the above isn't debatable. It's facts, though there are those in the hobby who are in denial or, like your LFS, are unknowledgeable and working from anecdotal information.

Get more info from this post: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/23132-marine-ich-myths-facts.html :read:

Good luck!

 

[BigAl07]

For instance: BigAl is saying that mandarins don't get ich. He's a moderator and I'm sure he's very experienced and knowledgeable. But this goes against everything else I've heard or read online. Now, if I listen to him and put another mandarin in there right away (which I most definitely am NOT) then I could end up with an ich-y mandarin. Then I'd come back on here and start a thread called 'My mandarin has ich!' And we'd argue back and forth about whether or not he has it, and how to treat it, and so forth.

I don't know everything and make MORE than my share of mistakes for sure.

...He's a moderator...

That only means I can work behind the scenes and kill SPAM I've got a LOT to learn in every aspect of this wonderful hobby. I appreciate the vote of confidence but I'm learning each and every day and you're WISE to take any and all advise into careful consideration.

I am only responding to your most recent post. I have looked over (skimmed) the other posts and found them to be, for the most part, accurate.

The Mandarin has a unique defense to parasites that reside on and in the substrate. They do however become infected. You see, in captivity, they can easily lose that defense and become susceptible to Marine Ich parasites and others. Though in the wild you'd not likely find them infected with Marine Ich, in the captive life, they can and do get infected.

See I've learned something new today. I've always been told and read (in some printed literature) that they couldn't come down with this period. Lee's explanation makes perfect sense and I'll change my thoughts/suggestions accordingly.

Y.....Now, if I listen to him and put another mandarin in there right away (which I most definitely am NOT) then I could end up with an ich-y mandarin. Then I'd come back on here and start a thread called 'My mandarin has ich!' And we'd argue back and forth about whether or not he has it, and how to treat it, and so forth.

Woa there... I didn't say "put another anything in there" or even mean to insinuate that. I can see your logic but I'm of the mindset that while ANYTHING is wrong with a tank or system you add nothing new (live-stock wise) to the equation. From my point of view when you (more accurately Me) have a problem the whole system is on LOCK-DOWN quarantine until well after things come back to stable. I'm not busting your chops and my advice was indeed flawed (corrected now) but I wouldn't have suggested in any way adding anything to a sickly system.

Thanks for chiming in Lee. Your input and expertise is greatly appreciated

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Sorry, BigAl. I didn't mean to insinuate that you insinuated that. LOL. I was just making a broader point about who I should be listening to. And you certainly never claimed to be an expert.

Now for the quarantine. I think I'll just use a 10 gallon. After all, it's only for a blenny and a damsel. How about rocks? I certainly shouldn't take rocks from the DT. But all of my rocks are in the DT. And how about filtration? I'm thinking of using a power filter and/or a sponge filter attached to an air pump. The only issue is that they won't be cycled. Does that matter or will that just be alleviated by doing frequent, large water changes? And, lastly, should I use hyposalinity, copper, what?

I appreciate all of the help. If you don't want to do it for me, think of the little lawnmower blenny!

 

[leebca]

What to do is clearly outlined here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums.../23584-fish-quarantine-process-step-step.html

It is written in great detail. If you can read closely and follow what you read, it will all turn out well. If you begin to deviate, make up your own way, or change things, you may find success just out of reach. The procedure outlined above is derived from decades of knowledge and experience.

Have you chosen your treatment method? Read these for your choices of treatment:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...nts/23131-hyposalinity-treatment-process.html
and
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...ents/23130-copper-treatment-use-problems.html

As mentioned above, follow the directions to the T. If something isn't clear, ask about it, and don't guess.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

OK. So basically I have to shut down my DT for a few weeks? I can't add anything to it, not even coral? Jeez. I guess I'm gonna set up a quarantine for the blenny. Maybe I should set up a little frag tank as well so I can keep working with my coral.

 

[leebca]

The problem with adding anything to the DT system is that the water that comes with the addition may contain the parasite, or the parasite may be loosely attached to the item. For instance, if you want to add a piece of coral and there are fish in with where the coral came from or if the coral tank is connected to fish tanks, then there is a risk that a fish disease or this parasite will come with it. After the Marine Ich is killed off in the DT the way to keep it out is to quarantine everything after that.

If you want to get a new piece of coral then the coral should be quarantined for no less than 6 weeks if you believe it couldn't possibly have Marine Ich with it, or 8 weeks if you think there may be a chance for it to have Marine Ich. Once out, you want to keep Marine Ich out.