I lost my Powder Brown Tang

[Tuscaquatics]

I've been doing my research on hyposalinity and I haven't set up a QT yet. All I need to get is a 10-gallon.

But today my blenny isn't looking great. He's acting lethargic and not eating normally. Most of the time he just sits on a rock and breathes with his mouth open. I'm not sure if he's breathing particularly fast, since I never really paid attention to his breathing before. I don't see any spots on him, but his eyes look a little cloudy, like they have less color to them.

I'm really worried about him. Like I said before he was my original fish in this tank and if he dies I'm gonna freak out.

Can I wait until tomorrow to put him in a QT? Do they get to a certain point of no return where he can no longer be brought back? And is it likely he has ich even if he doesn't have white spots? Help me out, guys. We have to save this fish.

Also, will it be OK to use a sponge filter from my DT in the QT? I have one in there that I don't use anymore. I unplugged it from the air pump and just left it in since it was behind some rockwork and I didn't want to take it all apart.

 

[teacampuzano]

If you don't feel comfortable with your QT tank just yet, sometimes you can go to the LFS and ask them to quarantine your fish. My LFS has tanks specifically incase yours isn't ready. I mean, it's an option so you don't have to watch him suffer in the tank. But murky eyes may mean ich as well, sorry to tell you that. To ensure he's eating you may want to drop the frozen squares of brine shrimp or whatever he may eat so he can see the food much more easily and he may not starve.

I stopped using the previous medication (ich cure that contained 'malachite green) for ich-attack. So far my coral look a little better off but my frogspawn coral is showing signs of 'flesh' regression. I'll try moving it to a less circulated area to see if it's just strong current that's causing regression, but I'm worried. I've been medicating for ich since sunday and the only thing that seems to grow well is hair algae due to lack of water changes (ichcure instructed to not do water changes). Today I did a water change so I'm staying hopeful... Good luck!

 

[Tuscaquatics]

If you don't feel comfortable with your QT tank just yet, sometimes you can go to the LFS and ask them to quarantine your fish. My LFS has tanks specifically incase yours isn't ready. I mean, it's an option so you don't have to watch him suffer in the tank. But murky eyes may mean ich as well, sorry to tell you that. To ensure he's eating you may want to drop the frozen squares of brine shrimp or whatever he may eat so he can see the food much more easily and he may not starve.

I stopped using the previous medication (ich cure that contained 'malachite green) for ich-attack. So far my coral look a little better off but my frogspawn coral is showing signs of 'flesh' regression. I'll try moving it to a less circulated area to see if it's just strong current that's causing regression, but I'm worried. I've been medicating for ich since sunday and the only thing that seems to grow well is hair algae due to lack of water changes (ichcure instructed to not do water changes). Today I did a water change so I'm staying hopeful... Good luck!

That's good advice. I might try that.

Are you dosing ich medication into your DT? I'm still learning the ins and outs of ich myself, but everyone in this thread and everything I've read elsewhere says that the ich meds that do work will kill your coral and other inverts, and the ones that claim to be 'reef-safe' just plain don't work.

So if you're dosing into the DT then that's what's hurting your coral.

 

[Sapphire]

I'm sorry about your fish - horrible thing to happen.

Sorry but what are your water parameters? That may help?

Also I understand from your other posts that this tank is only 3 1/2 - 4 months old - and that you only added your mandarin in the middle of July - see http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/saltwater-fish/48731-so-i-bought-mandarin.html
I see you said there were lots of pods but realistically there would not be a sustainable pod population to support a mandarin long term (I'm not suggesting this is why it died but it is something to note).

Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick but when you say " OK. So basically I have to shut down my DT for a few weeks? I can't add anything to it, not even coral? ",it sounds like you think corals are easier than fish. In reality corals generally require much more stringent water quality and lighting etc then fish. The QT procedure described sounds good too - thorough and practical.

it seems you're doing research which is great but perhaps you need to slow down a bit -hard to do in my experience but will result in a great tank!

 

[Tuscaquatics]

I'm sorry about your fish - horrible thing to happen.

Sorry but what are your water parameters? That may help?

Also I understand from your other posts that this tank is only 3 1/2 - 4 months old - and that you only added your mandarin in the middle of July - see http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/saltwater-fish/48731-so-i-bought-mandarin.html
I see you said there were lots of pods but realistically there would not be a sustainable pod population to support a mandarin long term (I'm not suggesting this is why it died but it is something to note).

Perhaps I have the wrong end of the stick but when you say " OK. So basically I have to shut down my DT for a few weeks? I can't add anything to it, not even coral? ",it sounds like you think corals are easier than fish. In reality corals generally require much more stringent water quality and lighting etc then fish. The QT procedure described sounds good too - thorough and practical.

it seems you're doing research which is great but perhaps you need to slow down a bit -hard to do in my experience but will result in a great tank!

Yeah, the mandarin didn't die because of the pods. I have tons, though. On the glass, every piece of rock, in the sand, in the sump, all over my turf scrubber and floating throughout the water. I also have feather dusters popping up, various other filter feeders and bristle worms. I even found a one inch sea slug crawling over my star polyps. Or at least that's what I think it is. And I don't use a skimmer so that's not pulling out pods. So that wasn't the problem with the mandarin.

As for my water params, they're all where they're supposed to be. And I don't have a speck of algae in the display tank, except for coralline.

The coral remark wasn't meant to trivialize the difficulty of keeping coral. That's not at all what I meant. What I meant was, basically, "Crap. So I have to essentially shut down my DT for a couple months as far as adding fish or even having any in there at all. Hopefully I could at least keep adding coral to the tank now that I have solid params across the board."

I'm only fooling with softies for right now because I don't have a metal halide yet. Like I said, I'll probably set up a 10 or 20 gallon frag tank and play with them for a while in there. (LOL...'play.' There I go trivializing it again.)

I don't think I'm really rushing anything. I'm not lacking patience. But I do remember people saying it would take 6, 8, even 10 weeks for my tank to cycle. I did it in about 3 or 4 with live rock, live sand and a little TLC. (The stuff in the bottle, not the philosophical kind.)

 

[leebca]

The blenny may be showing first symptoms of Marine Ich. However, those symptoms do match other problems, including water quality.

Best to move it along into hyposalinity as soon as possible, since it is known to have been exposed to Marine Ich.

The cycling of a tank is only a part of what happens as a tank matures. We can measure the parts of the nitrogen cycling, but the other 'cycling' we don't measure is still progressing for several months at which time, if proper care has been given the system, the tank has reached maturity -- a stability at an age suitable for more sensitive marine life forms.

I would define 'rushing' as putting a fish in a newly setup aquarium before 8 weeks after the system cycled.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Yeah, OK. 8 weeks after it's cycled? Come on.

The mandarin or other very sensitive fish I can understand. But you're telling me I'm not supposed to add ANY fish until 8 weeks AFTER the tank cycles?

Somebody else help me out here.

 

[BLAKEJOHN]

Leebca did not say you shouldn't or can't add any fish till 8 weeks after the cycle, that was merly thier idea of "rushing".

You may have the Manderins food source which is Copepods confused with Amphipods. Unless your tank is about a year old or you specifically breed and added them to your tank you probly would not have the Copepod population it would tank to sustain a manderin.

I would suggest you take the advise that has been given so far.

 

[lcstorc]

My comment is in my sig.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

So you guys all waited 8 weeks after the tank cycled to add fish? EIGHT weeks? Sometimes I think people say things on here that they don't live by themselves.

And with the mandarin, once again. I'm not debating the time it takes for the tank to mature to his needs. So let's drop the mandarin stuff.

But someone needs to PLEASE explain to me what the extra 8 weeks is for. If the tank is capable of handling the bio-load, what else am I waiting for?

 

[lcstorc]

No, I did not wait. Instead I killed a number of fish. Then I found RS and fish were much more likely to live.
There is no magic amount of time. There are just too many variables such as type of rock and water source and about a thousand other things. It is a matter of letting the tank mature and for the biological filtration to stabalize. The longer you wait. The better. With my 90g I had it sit cycled for several months befor I started stocking it. It is by far my most successful tank.
What is generally considered a good timeline is to cycle your tank and your qt at the same time. Then let your tank mature while you have the fish in QT for 8 weeks. By that time your tank should be mature enough for a fish.
Do keep in mind though that the most basic rule in reefkeeping is to be patient. The only thing that happens quickly in a reef tank is a crash. Good things come sowly.

 

[lcstorc]

I just realized what thread this is.
Are we talking about a tank cycling or are we talking about destroying ich?
Destroying the ich, takes the tank being without fish for 8 weeks so the parasite goes through all of it's life stages without a host.
My above comments referred to cycling a tank.

 

[BigAl07]

Tuscan you've been given precise advice from one of the BEST in the business (leebca) what you choose to do with that is up to you but I can assure you that following his advise will almost guarantee you success.

Keep in mine

he cycling of a tank is only a part of what happens as a tank matures. We can measure the parts of the nitrogen cycling, but the other 'cycling' we don't measure is still progressing for several months

. Just because the initial stage of the "Cycle" is over that doesn't mean the CYCLE is done.

I know it's very frustrating to wait and do things slowly but it's a LOT easier to do that than do them twice or worse.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Well what if I told you that a lot of the advice I've been given from the "best in the business" has been vehemently disputed by people that I regard as very trustworthy?

For instance, I've been told that hyposalinity doesn't work worth a damn.

 

[lcstorc]

It wouldn't suprise me at all.
There are still people that cycle their tank with fish. It is just a matter of how much stress you want to expose them to.
Other than for cycling purposes, I don't recall any recommendations to add fish quickly but there are many opinions about issues in this hobby. The ich however is a pretty solid answer. Some will say the fish can live with it and some can, but I have not read a reliable source that recommends another way of eliminating the parasite.
Hyposalinty and copper have both been proven to work but they both require very precise measurements. If I remember correctly the magic number for hypo is 1.009. To achieve and maintain that you will need a good refractometer and frequent testing and adjusting. The same with copper. The levels need to be very precise but if they are it works. Both are stressful on the fish during the treatment, but the stress during the treatment is less than the stress of constantly fighting the parasite.

 

[Tuscaquatics]

Well, in all honesty, most of this is probably moot at this point. My fish are all gone except for this stupid damsel that is hanging on for dear life. A new friend that I made locally seems to think that it was brooklynella rather than ich because of the way that the fish went so fast and with minimal warning signs.

Either way, I'm setting up a 10-gallon frag tank for my coral and I'm quite possibly gonna break down the entire DT and start again from scratch. Unless of course there's some kind of glaring problem with THAT.

 

[leebca]

You are waiting for the tank to mature.

We can only measure the nitrogen cycle. But there are dozens of other things changing in the water.

The water needs to stabilize in pH. This means that the tank needs to run in order for the hobbyist to control and balance Alkalinity, Calcium and Magnesium. This is covered in this post: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/34037-what-water-quality.html

If you'll read through the post on starting a new aquarium: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...arting-your-first-fo-fowlr-marine-system.html you'll find that this time is used to introduce your clean up crew AND to begin feeding them. Still, nothing can replace the time it takes for the microbes to go through their own cycles.

The maturing of a tank is the invisible cycling that goes on AFTER the cycle we can measure has completed. They are the bacteria, microbes, and water quality that goes through changes. This maturing is a system in change/flux, which higher forms of marine life (e.g., fishes, and non-mobile invertebrates) can't handle. They come from a stable environment.

This information is further covered in this post: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/29836-mature-aquarium.html

A person new to the hobby is told things or learns things. Somehow they become 'truth' to the hobbyist. When other information comes in it is often shot down since it doesn't match the original information. However, most hobbyists are mis-informed from the start.

I won't contribute to this thread anymore. Good luck!

 

[TylerHaworth]

All your fish are gone? Sounds like you need to find someone new to listen to. Might want to try listening to some of the advice you came here seeking.