Fuge Necessary???!!!!!!!!

Frankie

Frankie

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Midnight said:
I understand what frankie means. In time we will not be able to get LR because there going to have to put limits on it at some point, so its not all in are tanks and not in the Ocean. That means we are going to have to find ways to help are corals grow without all the bio things. Well at least thats what I thought :) if not Frankie please correct me
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It's not just about the rock in Tonga. You will not see corals coming out of there anymore either soon. That cuts out all native corals from that location and the only way you will get them in the future will be from aqua culture farms. This will only spread to other reefs around the world in time. Doesn't bother me at all :) The real problem will be coral dealers and the aqua cultured industry. Most high end big demand corals are in extremely low nutrient systems and being propagated and grown again. Then we purchase them and put them in a nutrient laden aquarium. NBD. But the coral darkens, gets duller and the buyer thinks they got had or are doing something wrong. That is not the case but aquariums with refugiums are going to have nutrients and algae problems that these corals will not be able to prosper in.
Refugiums are cool and I love seeing them. They will never bring your water quality to NSW levels though and that is what the future is going to be.
Please don't get me wrong. I love all of your tanks. Having a refugium and more natural aquariums is the best way to learn this hobby. It builds patients and opens peoples minds to what nature is all about. Fuge on my fellow reefers!
 
Dentoid

Dentoid

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Eric Borneman's personal aquarium is a multihabitat system of more than 500 gallons that links a seagrass habitat, an intertidal habitat and large reef that runs without mechanical filtration devices.
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I wonder if Eric is using probiotics these days?
 
framerguy

framerguy

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The purpose of the refugium is to reduce the nutrients in the DT where the corals will be housed...right? Setting up a large enough system (nothing to rival nature of course but I'm trying) and replicating each facet of the reef support "should" produce favorable conditions for most of what I want to keep. I find it impossible to believe that the only way to achieve a nutrient poor aquarium is with chemicals.
 
Frankie

Frankie

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Same way you do. Biologically.
I also use aggressive skimming, carbon and zeolites to strip the water.
My goal is to pretty much strip the water of all nutrients and dose my own bacteria.
 
Frankie

Frankie

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framerguy said:
can you link me to info to support this statement?
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Refugiums will only do so much to remove nutrients. They will also leach them back into the water column. Yes I will try and find you some reading material on it.
 
nanoreefsrcool

nanoreefsrcool

Member
yea i did some reaserch and i think im gonna have a bare bottom tank i personally really like the look.


alright say i have a 100 gal cube 30*30*24 120lbs of live rock and a really good smimmer like a asm g3. and thas it would could i expect from this set up?

also will 24 inch 250 metal halide and t5s outer orbit total of 355 watt be decint lighting for this tank?


thanks
 
Jeremy0322

Jeremy0322

Active Member
I dont know about the lighting you have, that may be kinda iffy, but as for the setup itself I think you are going to have one heck of a tank! Good amount of live rock, nice skimmer, and a really nice shape for a tank. You may want to got with somehting a little more powerful light wise depending on if you are keeping corals and what type. You are at 3.55 watts per gallon, and the rule(if you can even call it a rule anymore) is that you need at least 5 watts per gallon and much more for better corals. I make the comment about the rule not being a real rule because there are way too many variables that play into that whole situation.
 
charlesr1958

charlesr1958

Active Member
framerguy said:
I knew you would and wanted to hear your side. I still think natural filtration and nutrient export via refugiums is the way I want to go. I like refugiums, the way they look, the way the work, the way they stabilize the system, pretty much everything about them. I am not much up on probiotics so I can't comment on it.

I just want to reiterate that a refugium is the way that "I" want to go, not that it is the only way to go. When I saw you had to dismantle your refugium to go with the Balling system that counted me out of that technology.
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Personaly, for me the key word is "reef". Not something that is going to be possible within a single aquarium, a coral display aquarium, yes, but to get anywhere near having an ecosystem based on photosynthesis is going to take our best efforts at recreating the multiple habitats that make keeping any semblance of diversity, food production and nutrient export/recycling possible.
In nature there are natural "barriers" that keep the various habitats (shoreline/seagrass/seaweeds/kelp/coral reefs seperated to a large extent, such seperation allows each area to bring their nutrient cycles to the larger picture. Case in point, Herbivores, they keep the algae in check on the coral's section, yet they are unable to penetrate into the shallows where the macroalgae find refuge, and have done so for millenium to the point they have come up with adaptations to exsist where they are forced into. Remove the herbivores and algae quickly takes over the corals area, regardless of how nutrient poor the water is, just ask the Caribbean reefs.
In short, why fight what is going to happen regardless (algae growth) and instead take advantage of it, not only as a means of controlling nutrient levels, but just the habitat alone brings one that much more closer to being able to have an actual ecosystem, or as we like to call it, a reef.

Some obvious and not so obvious benefits:

- Dissolved nutrient control, a small ATS and a thought out macroalgae refugium will keep a properly stocked coral reef display at undetectable levels (per hobby test kits).

- If you have ever seen a salt mix analysis and compare it against natural saltwater levels, you were probably just as shocked as I was at seeing how high the metal / heavy elementals were. Well, macroalgae have a great storage capacity of such metals, cleaning your water in ways you probably never thought of or knew of.

- Food producing habitat, I think many hobbyists would be quite surprised at not only the amount of live food being produced, but the diversity of life mostly going unseen. All of which not only go towards feeding the larger inhabitants, but are in their own right, the unsung heros of any clean up crew.

Sorry, but the idea of keeping a diverse ecosystem that is known as a reef is simply not going to happen within a single aquarium. Not that its the fault of the reef keeper, its simply just a fact of life. Push all the habitats together in the wild, and one of them is going to come out on top, while suffering for the lack of the others being around.

Again, keeping corals alive is one thing and may be your only goal, so be it. But... to keep a reef with corals being but a part of the equation, then you are simply going to have to have a multiple tank system. By the way, almost the entire "reef" aquarium product industry is based upon trying to keep a single aquarium alive by doing their best to get around the short comings of not having the other habitats around, such short comings has lead us down many paths and sadly, many deaths.

By now this rates being called a rant, sorry but its a subject near (as in my backyard) and dear to me.

Chuck
 
charlesr1958

charlesr1958

Active Member
By chance, having gotten bored last night, I pulled a tiny bit of filamentous algae off of my unintended ATS and swished it around in a petri dish of tank water. This is just a small species sampling of what I could get actual photos of.

temp50.jpg


Keep in mind that I have not added any new rock or sand, nor have done a water change for as long as I can remember now. Which means all of this life is reproducing and maintaining their own populations. The nematode population is so large, I had to make a tiny movie just to get across the sheer numbers involved Nematode movie

Chuck
 
BigAl07

BigAl07

Administrator
RS STAFF
Great pics. THAT'S yet another reason why a FUGE is so beneficial. That's a HUGE amount of "micro-food" that's on AUTO FEED in your tank with a fuge.
 
charlesr1958

charlesr1958

Active Member
Forgot one other benefit, and one that seems to have too much importance placed upon it anyways. Water clarity. The amount of microscopic particles trapped by such algae is astounding, which goes towards feeding the "food" as well. On shorelines, the filamentous algae trap and hold an ungodly amount of sediments that not only give the algae even more surface area to grow upon, but creates a mini live sandbed if you will. Preventing such sediments from getting offshore is of course a benefit to the corals as well.

Oh! and lets not overlook live sandbeds either, they too produce just as much, maybe even more such foods while doing some pretty cool chemistry at the same time.

You guys shouldn't have gotten me started...lol, I could go on for days...lol

Chuck
 
Dentoid

Dentoid

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Chuck, that's not a rant, it's a rave! I think you answered Nanoreefsrcool's question with eloquence and knowledge.
 
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