Fish beginning to behave unusual

[jpsika08]

Lee,
First off this is my tank specs:
DT 400 Gallons
Over 200 Pounds of Rock
Over 200 Pounds of sand
Power heads for water movement
Sump with Filter socks and carbon reactor for filtering as well as sKimmer
Fuge with Chaeto macroalgae and most of other things under my signature.

My Inhabitant list is:
1 Kole Tang
2 Clarkii Clowns
7 Green Chromis
1 Multicolor Angel
35 Snails
and Some Softies and SPS coral.

Water Parameters:

Ammonia 0
Nitrite 0
Nitrate 0
Salinity 1.025
PH 8.30
Temp 78F Average daily
Calcium 440 ppm
Alk 2.4 meq
Mg 1200
Phosphates 0.11

System is almost new, water was from former tank and this system has been running for over a month or so.

Now, two to three weeks ago I introduced the Kole Tang to the system (No I did not QT it, yes, you can hit me now :hammerhea), he was doing good as well as the other fish, eating and swimming around, color was great a little bit shy but nothing out of the extraordniary.

Well, yesterday when I came home he was pale as a ghost, as if something was stressing him, I saw the clowns in their usual Me Female you Male dance near where the Kole resides, also, I have the lights do a "Cloud" passing mode so light intensity goes down and up pretty quickly which can stress him too.

Well, today I have seen him upclose and hiding from the back of the tank and see some spots on him, stiill pale and now that moon lights are on he swims flashing from one side to the other, so Ich is confirmed on him.

Rest of fish haven't presented any spots yet but I know that most probably they will have the parasite lurking in them as we speak, their behavior us unusual too.

I read somewhere (And sorry to even mention it as it sounds dumb but trying to limit all my possibilities) that Ich will go away in a large tank by itself, that I should just increase their immune system by dripping garlic in their food ?!?!

I have a 45 Galloin QT which will not be enough to hold all fish, specially the Tang, I read your 5 gallon per inch rule and 9 gallon per inch on Tangs, so definetily I will not meet the minimum size for tank, my LFS is running a fish free 120 gallon QT right now, should I give all my fish to them for copper treatment? I think they even have poured copper in the tank so it's mostly prepared.

If you need more info please let me know.

Thanks for any input you can give me.

 

[Jackalope]

ive seen garlic in food used tons. the ratio or how much i have no clue, but i hear it does quite a bit for immune systems on fish. as for the quarantine tank, if the LFS near you has a QT rdy by all means i would say go for it. the inch per fish rule goes out the window for LFS's so why not for a QT too?

you wouldnt happen to have a UV system running on that tank would you? i hear ich is waterborn parasite and once in the water and passes through UV it dies. just something to think about for future preventatives.

 

[jpsika08]

Thanks James, I will contact my LFS tomorrow so he can help me pull out the fish.
Good thing they are 1 mile away from me so easy to check on mu guys

I'm putting garlic in every meal from here onward.

 

[Jackalope]

theres a liquid garlic you can buy specifically for mixing with your fish food. i would ask about it Juan and see while you are at the LFS. GL on the fish-catching! lol i know how much a pita that can be

 

[jpsika08]

Thanks James, the fish catching is whats stressing me more, there are tons of hiding places where they can hide.

 

[tnwillia]

Good luck Juan!

 

[BigAl07]

Dang Juan. I'm sorry to hear this. I think, if I were in your shoes I'd do this:

• A) Get the fish to the LFS qt system and work closely with them in the proper treatment of your fish.
  
• B) Leave your current system totally fishless (Fallow) for a full 8 - 12 weeks which will break the life cycle of the Marine Ich
  
• C) Repeat this 1,987 times "I will not introduce any new livestock into my system until AFTER a thorough QT process has been completed."
  
• D) Even after this issue is over it's a VERY good idea to keep working on their DIET and bolster their immune system. It's always in your best interest to have them as healthy as possible at all times and DIET is VERY important for long-term health.

Unfortunately one thing you've heard is false. . . .

Ich will go away in a large tank by itself

As long as there are fish in the system it really wont "go away" because the life cycle isn't broken. It might be kept under slight control if all the fish are healthy but MI doesn't just go away as long as there are any hosts in the tank. MYTH at least IMHO.

 

[Robzilla]

I think you know how to catch the fish....Snorkel Time!!!

Hope everything goes well Juan

 

[PSU4ME]

Sorry to hear buddy

 

[leebca]

Sorry to hear of all this. Most unfortunate, but it does happen. Introducing a sick fish into a DT when QT isn't used is just a matter of time, sort of like 'our harddrives will fail, we just don't know when,' so we back them up.

If you're sure about Marine Ich being the matter, then garlic will not help. You can review my bio for more info on that: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html and other posts: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/70711-garlic-remedy.html

Essentially, the fish come out of the DT and the DT goes fallow. Just follow the guidelines given here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/52236-curing-fish-marine-ich.html

As far as your other concerns:
1. Where those fish go (when out of the DT) needs to be where they can be held, disease free after treatment, until your DT is ready for them. If the LFS tank is not part of their usual fish water treatment system, you may still think in terms of trusting the LFS, LFS employees, and the public from not contaminating that tank. If that tank they have is part of the LFS general water treatment system, then don't do this.

2. What you've heard is perhaps mixed up a bit. Marine Ich (MI) goes away in a fishless tank on its own in about 8 weeks. Also MI will go away on its own after about 11 months in an infected tank (with fish still in it) IF there is no new MI parasites introduced. The MI parasite keeps reproducing and we have learned that it eventually 'wears out' and its ability to infect after about 11 months is pretty low. No guarantees on this, just a few of us have done the tests. Introduce any MI parasite during that time and it rejuvenates those there and they are 'empowered' again. Personally, I find that treating our fish like this (seeing how many will live during that 11 months time) goes beyond poor fish husbandry and enters into fish abuse.

3. The above (2.) is in no way connected to the immune system of the fish, nor to their diet, nor to garlic. Fish in a captive environment cannot fend off large numbers of parasites. In fish tanks with fish, the parasite is like at an 'all-you-can-eat' buffet.

The fish taken out of the DT don't all have to go into one treatment/QT. You can use multiples. Obtain used/new ones they sell them off when done, or give them away as Christmas presents.

As an aside and just an observation, I would move the alk, calcium, and magnesium levels into balance as given in the table in this post: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/34037-what-water-quality.html It is much better for pH control and water quality stability.

 

[jpsika08]

Good luck Juan!

Thanks Tom.

Dang Juan. I'm sorry to hear this. I think, if I were in your shoes I'd do this:

• A) Get the fish to the LFS qt system and work closely with them in the proper treatment of your fish.
  
• B) Leave your current system totally fishless (Fallow) for a full 8 - 12 weeks which will break the life cycle of the Marine Ich
  
• C) Repeat this 1,987 times "I will not introduce any new livestock into my system until AFTER a thorough QT process has been completed."
  
• D) Even after this issue is over it's a VERY good idea to keep working on their DIET and bolster their immune system. It's always in your best interest to have them as healthy as possible at all times and DIET is VERY important for long-term health.

Unfortunately one thing you've heard is false. . . .



As long as there are fish in the system it really wont "go away" because the life cycle isn't broken. It might be kept under slight control if all the fish are healthy but MI doesn't just go away as long as there are any hosts in the tank. MYTH at least IMHO.

Thanks Al,
The Kole is out of the tank as we speak, LFS guy went in for him, it was already swimming belly up, poor guy.
The rest of fishes was impossible to catch, the Chromis are bullets in the water, we will try again on Saturday which he has more time as well as me.

And yes, no more fishes until the QT process ends.

I think you know how to catch the fish....Snorkel Time!!!

Hope everything goes well Juan

LOL, almost, I already know of a fish trap a guy has so I will try using it, and maybe I will use the Bottle fish trap which is house made for the Chromis, I know those little guys are not the smarter ones LOL

Sorry to hear buddy

Thanks Bryan.

Sorry to hear of all this. Most unfortunate, but it does happen. Introducing a sick fish into a DT when QT isn't used is just a matter of time, sort of like 'our harddrives will fail, we just don't know when,' so we back them up.

If you're sure about Marine Ich being the matter, then garlic will not help. You can review my bio for more info on that: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/45723-lees-bio-k-leebca.html and other posts: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/70711-garlic-remedy.html

Essentially, the fish come out of the DT and the DT goes fallow. Just follow the guidelines given here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/52236-curing-fish-marine-ich.html

As far as your other concerns:
1. Where those fish go (when out of the DT) needs to be where they can be held, disease free after treatment, until your DT is ready for them. If the LFS tank is not part of their usual fish water treatment system, you may still think in terms of trusting the LFS, LFS employees, and the public from not contaminating that tank. If that tank they have is part of the LFS general water treatment system, then don't do this.

2. What you've heard is perhaps mixed up a bit. Marine Ich (MI) goes away in a fishless tank on its own in about 8 weeks. Also MI will go away on its own after about 11 months in an infected tank (with fish still in it) IF there is no new MI parasites introduced. The MI parasite keeps reproducing and we have learned that it eventually 'wears out' and its ability to infect after about 11 months is pretty low. No guarantees on this, just a few of us have done the tests. Introduce any MI parasite during that time and it rejuvenates those there and they are 'empowered' again. Personally, I find that treating our fish like this (seeing how many will live during that 11 months time) goes beyond poor fish husbandry and enters into fish abuse.

3. The above (2.) is in no way connected to the immune system of the fish, nor to their diet, nor to garlic. Fish in a captive environment cannot fend off large numbers of parasites. In fish tanks with fish, the parasite is like at an 'all-you-can-eat' buffet.

The fish taken out of the DT don't all have to go into one treatment/QT. You can use multiples. Obtain used/new ones they sell them off when done, or give them away as Christmas presents.

As an aside and just an observation, I would move the alk, calcium, and magnesium levels into balance as given in the table in this post: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/34037-what-water-quality.html It is much better for pH control and water quality stability.

Lee, thank you very much for your post.

Just reviewing then,

1. The QT used at the LFS is not interconnected with the rest of the display tanks, it's running by itself so this is good, also, no other fish would go in, just my fishes can be there during treating time.

2. Thank you for this recommendation so as Al above and yourself mentions, tank will run fishless 8 weeks minimum.


3. So this is the main problem then, in a close system MI will keep reproducing in amounts fish can't defend themselves even with a good immune system, point taken.

Thanks, I think because of the size of my stock right now (Excluding the Kole as the LFS just called they freezed him as he was in really bad shape) they can be within a 120 gallon QT without a problem, though, I have in my house a 45 and a 20 high, maybe I will add another one just so I can QT more fish to go in the future (Which will commence once the tank has been 8 weeks fishless).

Also, I will read your Water Quality link and target the recommendations.

Thank you Lee and everybody for the quick and great responses.

 

[PSU4ME]

8 weeks fishless is a perfect time to QT new fish!!!! Sorry to hear about Mr. Kole.......

 

[jpsika08]

Thanks Bryan,
After reading Lee's stickies (Including Water Quality) I will take my time and it will be my main objective for the next weeks to accomplish excellent water parameters based on his thread.

Yes, poor Mr. Kole, it was the most humane thing to do as freezing them just puts them to sleep and die without any pain, really sad just to think of it.

 

[Robzilla]

Sorry to hear about the Kole

 

[jpsika08]

Thanks Rob.

 

[catran]

Juan, I'm so sorry to hear about Mr. Kole! Good luck, hope the rest will be okay.


:hug1:

 

[jpsika08]

Thanks Cat,

 

[leebca]

I didn't realize what was meant by 'freezing' the Kole until I read additional posts. You see like a good person, jpsika, and want to do what's right for the marine fishes, so I'd like you to read another post when you can: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/57513-euthanasia-putting-fish-down.html

Especially note the Other Methods section. Freezing is a means of 'torturing' fish to death. Their lungs begin to freeze and they die by gasping for air, before their body freezes. That is, they suffocate to death in a freezer.

Good luck with your efforts.

 

[reefornot2reef]

Every tank has ick well every fish has ick. Putting a new fish in a situation that is going to cause stress will creat outbreaks. One thing I have learned QT fish if not make sure they are eating and in near prefect codition when you buy them. UV sterlizer works great when ran the correct way. Putting fish in a intro box as I call it. I took a egg create and made a good size box to put into my tank when leave them in the box 4-5 day even a week. Normal feeding routine make sure they new fish get food. Once the fish has adjusted open up a small area allow the fish to come out on his terms. If he gets harrassed he will run back to the box you start again. My 2 cents.

 

[jpsika08]

OMG, I wish I had read this before, I will give send this article to the LFS guy,