Daily water changes instead of batch changers.

[Mandy11]

Ok, at the moment we do large batch water changes every 21 days. when I say large its 25% of total water volume so around 300lts.
In winter particularly it is a pain in the butt to heat that much water, match sal, alk etc although the change itself only takes about 20mins.
I have been reading a lot lately about doing daily water changes, so I would do approx 20lts a day. So every 21 days I would be changing out 410ltrs.
We use NSW for changes, have 1000lts stored so doing it daily should be as easy as couple of buckets a day.
Saves having to heat the water, keeps numbers steady with less swings (not that we have major ones)
Does anyone on here either do daily changes or continuous water changes ?
What difference if any can you see ?
What sort of auto set ups do you have to do these ?
Basically pros and cons on this subject would be greatly appreciated.

 

[Alecia]

Love to hear responses on this question....I myself am looking to change out 5 gal every 2 weeks as opposed to changing 30 once a month. Can't wait to see IF there is a difference.

 

[StirCrayzy]

@Choff has a Genesis Automatic Water Changing system. He can probably give some insight.
http://genesisreefsystems.com/products/automatic-water-change-systems/
It follows the concept your bringing up.
I believe lots of small WC helps stability more than larger infrequent WC, but I only do 25% once a month partially because I'm busy (and a bit lazy given an opportunity) unless I have issues to resolve then I double the frequency at least.

 

[Oxylebius]

The idea behind doing weekly verses monthly water changes is that over time, say weeks, the level of the elements in your tank (Alk, Ca, Mg, major and minor elements) will lower over time. That said, weekly water changes don't allow for a larger drop in these, keeps the levels higher and more consistent. If you allow the levels to fall over the course of 3-4 weeks, the levels can get quiet low and when you do a larger water change you are essentially raising the levels quiet a bit. This leads to less consistent levels. Dosing can help keep levels more consistent.

The amount that these levels will fall over the course of 3-4 weeks will vary from tank to tank based on the amount of corals you have sucking them up. Tanks with little to no corals can easily get away with doing once a month water changes. Tanks with lots of corals, particularly corals that take up these elements, will see a larger change over 3-4 weeks, causing unstable parameters.

This doesn't take into account what is happening with the nitrogen in the tank (NH3, NO2, NO3). The opposite happens here. Instead of lowering of levels, these will rise. Weekly water changes will keep the levels lower. Monthly water changes will allow these to build up, sometimes to very high levels. Again, this will vary on the tank (depending on how well the filtration is, how much fish are in the tank, how much live rock is in the tank, etc. etc.).

These are things to think about and determine what works best for your tank. Testing water quality using test kits will give you the answers and help to inform you on what you can get away with based on your tank system.

 

[Choff]

I love it. First off I religiously did weekly water changes. I did aprox 45g on my 320g system. Now I change 1 gal every 4 hours (42g/wk). I'm changing slightly less water and you also have to factor in that you are changing out some "newer" water it's probably closer to 38 gal/wk.

I have not noticed any change in my corals, but with a system as large mine my chemistry was very stable to begin with considering I also run a calcium reactor. For me the benefit was more automation and less manual intervention. I simply mix a barrel of salt every 7 to 10 days

I think the benefits to corals in a system that does biweekly or monthly wc would be tremendous.

I didn't think it's a secret, but stability is the most basic key to success in this hobby. Automated , continuous water changes can certainly help with that.

Btw, I do run genesis system, but I didn't get their ato. I use my apex to manage that. Apex had not released their new pumps that people are using for auto water changes. If you have an apex check those out, they are cheaper.

 

[Mandy11]

The idea behind doing weekly verses monthly water changes is that over time, say weeks, the level of the elements in your tank (Alk, Ca, Mg, major and minor elements) will lower over time. That said, weekly water changes don't allow for a larger drop in these, keeps the levels higher and more consistent. If you allow the levels to fall over the course of 3-4 weeks, the levels can get quiet low and when you do a larger water change you are essentially raising the levels quiet a bit. This leads to less consistent levels. Dosing can help keep levels more consistent.

The amount that these levels will fall over the course of 3-4 weeks will vary from tank to tank based on the amount of corals you have sucking them up. Tanks with little to no corals can easily get away with doing once a month water changes. Tanks with lots of corals, particularly corals that take up these elements, will see a larger change over 3-4 weeks, causing unstable parameters.

This doesn't take into account what is happening with the nitrogen in the tank (NH3, NO2, NO3). The opposite happens here. Instead of lowering of levels, these will rise. Weekly water changes will keep the levels lower. Monthly water changes will allow these to build up, sometimes to very high levels. Again, this will vary on the tank (depending on how well the filtration is, how much fish are in the tank, how much live rock is in the tank, etc. etc.).

These are things to think about and determine what works best for your tank. Testing water quality using test kits will give you the answers and help to inform you on what you can get away with based on your tank system.

'Hi, thank you for your response.
I am wanting to know about DAILY water changes.
I am looking at doing 20lts a day, instead of 300lts every 21 days.
I am wondering if anyone else had tried it ?

 

[Mandy11]

I love it. First off I religiously did weekly water changes. I did aprox 45g on my 320g system. Now I change 1 gal every 4 hours (42g/wk). I'm changing slightly less water and you also have to factor in that you are changing out some "newer" water it's probably closer to 38 gal/wk.

I have not noticed any change in my corals, but with a system as large mine my chemistry was very stable to begin with considering I also run a calcium reactor. For me the benefit was more automation and less manual intervention. I simply mix a barrel of salt every 7 to 10 days

I think the benefits to corals in a system that does biweekly or monthly wc would be tremendous.

I didn't think it's a secret, but stability is the most basic key to success in this hobby. Automated , continuous water changes can certainly help with that.

Btw, I do run genesis system, but I didn't get their ato. I use my apex to manage that. Apex had not released their new pumps that people are using for auto water changes. If you have an apex check those out, they are cheaper.

Thank you very much.
I suppose I was wondering if there was any noticeable differences and this was why I was going to try it. '
I wasn't going to automate it, so its prob not worth the effort of doing this if you clearly cant see a huge difference. It was the corals that I was thinking might appreciate it.
The tank is extremely stable with the way we have been doing it, so no need to change I suppose.
I appreciate the info. thank you.

 

[cracker]

Mandy, You having that much water on hand is great for frequent water changes which to me makes a lot of sense. I also like the fact You use nsw. That's a lot of water to collect from the sea. What steps do You have to go thru to collect it? Thanks

 

[Mandy11]

Mandy, You having that much water on hand is great for frequent water changes which to me makes a lot of sense. I also like the fact You use nsw. That's a lot of water to collect from the sea. What steps do You have to go thru to collect it? Thanks

We used to just collect of the end of a 300mtr jetty. Rope & bucket into 200lt pickle barrels through a filter sock. But we are very lucky that we have a government marine testing centre that now sells nsw for $100 per 1000lts delivered, or 2000lts for $180. So we have just bought another IBC and are storing 2000lts. Salinity is at 1.030 so we dilut to 1.026 and use as is. Parameters are always steady & nil phos & nitrates. Saves us a lot of money , tank loves it. Corals have popped last 7 months I wouldn't go back to asw now

 

[SubRosa]

If the main reason for changes is to supplement Ca, Alk, and Mg then daily changes are better. If the main reason is to remove accumulated waste, then doing a weekly change of a given amount will remove more than daily changes totalling the same volume.

 

[Choff]

If the main reason for changes is to supplement Ca, Alk, and Mg then daily changes are better. If the main reason is to remove accumulated waste, then doing a weekly change of a given amount will remove more than daily changes totalling the same volume.

I can't get my head around your rationale. While I agree you need to do larger daily WC to equal that of weekly WC, the impact on in vs out should be the same. Do you mind expanding on this?

 

[SubRosa]

Do

I can't get my head around your rationale. While I agree you need to do larger daily WC to equal that of weekly WC, the impact on in vs out should be the same. Do you mind expanding on this?

Do the math on the following example. You have 100 gal of water that has 100 ppm nitrates in two separate containers. In one you change 70% with water containing no nitrates. Obviously you have 30ppm nitrates left. Now take 10% out of the other and replace it with water containing no nitrates. You have 90 ppm left. Do another 10% the next day, and you are removing 10% of 90 ppm which is 9 ppm, not the 10 ppm you removed the previous day. See the trend? If not, do the math yourself on the next 5 changes.

 

[Choff]

Yes, I stated above in both of my posts that you need to do slightly larger amounts if you go daily to have the same impact of larger batch changes. Google Randy farley batch water changes. He has a tremendous post with lots of math and graphs showing nutrient removal as well as impacts on ca/alk/mg with various wc sizes and intervals.

What I didn't get was your statement that you are better off doing daily if you looking for alk/calc/mg stability and bulk were better for nutrient removal.

 

[StirCrayzy]

I see it as a difference of dilution in vs. out.
Whether the process is Effective vs Efficient is another debate, since it is more dependant on specific systems.

My perception on the matter...
When adding consumables ( Ca, alk, mg, in new water) slowly over time it maintains saturation of the system at whatever the final new water values are when mixed. . Because you are adding consistently Same, or similar parameters, this makes a consistent stable solution for REPLENISHING.

Waste on the other hand has a variable production rate in tank, and is diluted immediately then removed at only the % of saturation at the time of day when the WC is done, and at a smaller total % of Water volume, making small WC less effective at REMOVAL .

I will say though, that if the Frequency and quantity of these small WCs is great enough, it is more than possible to accomplish effective (though debateably less efficient) removal. This assumes you remove more or equal the amount of waste accumulation in the system over the time and % of volume being changed.
Which is probably the situation you are in Mike.

 

[Choff]

All you could ever want to know in the subject

http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2005-10/rhf/

 

[StirCrayzy]

Yeah that article pretty much sums up what I believed was going on.
I didn't know until I read the %'s how little of an efficiency difference it actually was.
I like Randy's disclaimer at the beginning...

While several authors have endeavored to more clearly answer these three questions (links to which are given in the references), the questions are really very complicated. Unfortunately, this article will not help to clarify these issues

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

this part in bold below... was surprising to me... anyone have thoughts on this?

Conclusion

Water changes are a good way to help control certain processes that serve to drive reef aquarium water away from its starting purity. Some things build up in certain situations (organics, certain metals, sodium, chloride, nitrate, phosphate, sulfate, etc.), and some things become depleted (calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, strontium, silica, etc.). Water changes can serve to help correct these imbalances, and in some cases may be the best way to deal with them. Water changes of 15-30% per month (whether carried out once a month, daily or continuously) have been shown in the graphs above to be useful in moderating the drift of these different seawater components from starting levels. For most reef aquaria, I recommend such changes as good aquarium husbandry. In general, the more the better, if carried out appropriately, and if the new salt water is of appropriate quality.

Calcium and alkalinity, being rapidly depleted in most reef aquaria, are not well controlled, or even significantly impacted by such small water changes. In order to maintain them with no other supplements, changes on the order of 30-50% PER DAY would be required. Nevertheless, that option may still be a good choice for very small aquaria, especially if the changes are slow and automatic.

Happy Reefing!

 

[Mandy11]

this part in bold below... was surprising to me... anyone have thoughts on this?

Conclusion

Water changes are a good way to help control certain processes that serve to drive reef aquarium water away from its starting purity. Some things build up in certain situations (organics, certain metals, sodium, chloride, nitrate, phosphate, sulfate, etc.), and some things become depleted (calcium, magnesium, alkalinity, strontium, silica, etc.). Water changes can serve to help correct these imbalances, and in some cases may be the best way to deal with them. Water changes of 15-30% per month (whether carried out once a month, daily or continuously) have been shown in the graphs above to be useful in moderating the drift of these different seawater components from starting levels. For most reef aquaria, I recommend such changes as good aquarium husbandry. In general, the more the better, if carried out appropriately, and if the new salt water is of appropriate quality.

Calcium and alkalinity, being rapidly depleted in most reef aquaria, are not well controlled, or even significantly impacted by such small water changes. In order to maintain them with no other supplements, changes on the order of 30-50% PER DAY would be required. Nevertheless, that option may still be a good choice for very small aquaria, especially if the changes are slow and automatic.

Happy Reefing!

Well thank you for that.
I suppose that has answered my questions for than any other.
We have a 400g that I do have to dose daily with cal and Alk, so if smaller water changes are not going to help with that I don't suppose I will try it then.
I had heard that you needed much less dosing if you did it daily and thus tank remains very stable.
With such a large sytem its probably not going to work,
I think I will stick to the 25% every 3 weeks then.
Thanks all for your input very much appreciated.

 

[Rakahrd]

on aq 55 gal tank should I change 5 gal a month?

 

[Choff]

on aq 55 gal tank should I change 5 gal a month?

All depends on what you have for stock, but a tank that size if it was mine I'd be doing 5gal a week. If your fish only that might be fine if you have acro that would be very low imo. Hard to say without knowing more.

 

[Rakahrd]

it is fish only at the moment . 1 lawnmower blennie,1 B&W stripped damsel, 2 blue damsels,2 green chormus,1 yellow tang (small) and 1 cardenel(verry small). waiting on my CUC still to arive 100 strong.
I have a protien skimmer ,deep sand bed Live rock, with a sump with live rock and sand bed working on getting Macro algae established ( chato for now but small)
I am thinking od doing a algae scrubber ?