BSJF dying?

[kyley]

Hi All,
An overdue thanks to Tom and Tammy! And as I complete the treatment of Spot, a huge thanks to Lee and Boomer (and Kevin who helped Boomer) for all their help and support here.

I did my 5th and final formalin dip a week ago (17th). Copper treatment was started on April 5th and thus would have been complete on the 19th. I still have the copper in the tank though. I had also done 4 or 5 doses of Kanaplex antibiotic during those treatments.

Spot looks perfect now (and has for just over a week now). Color is great, he's breathing / acting great; and slowly overcoming his fear of me after capturing him and putting him through 5 formalin dips, freshwater dips, and everything else. He's been camera shy though, so I don't have any good photos. Here's the best I've got from today:

Anyway, I'm declaring the fish cured as far as I can tell - there's nothing else I can do at any rate! I'm planning on re-introducing him to the DT next week. That will be the real test as there's a chance whatever he got is still in the water. I'm not sure what else to do though... And none of the fish in the DT have been sick (that's not to say they couldn't be carrying something though).

I'm reintroducing him a bit premature, but I don't see much of a reason not to. If he gets sick again (whether in QT or DT), I'll just have to get him out and give him away (hopefully it doesn't come to that!). I also have another fish coming next week and want to give it a proper quarantine period.

Lee / Boomer, I have a few questions about prepping the QT for the next fish...
1. Should I do a 100% water change? I did a 100% water change on Friday - before the last formalin dip.
2. Should I consider keeping a low level of Cupramine in the quarantine tank for new fish?
3. Anything else I need to do to the QT to prepare for the next fish?

Thanks,
--Kyle

 

[lcstorc]

Awesome!
If you don't mind, would you create a thread in the blue-spot forum with pictures and details of what you did. I am afraidm this thread might confuse people with what you did and did not do. I would love to have the details there as well.

 

[kyley]

Hi Lynn, yes, I'll certainly do that soon. I'd like to get a better picture of Spot's "after" pic first. But the solution to what my fish has is now pretty straight forward I think (after doing it and seeing the results). I'll summarize it all soon.

In a perfect world I think this fish would be cured for good. But in reality / my situation, I'm just afraid of the DT / DT fish containing something that may bring it all back Take care,
--Kyle

 

[leebca]

Follow the guidelines in the QT post for either maintaining the QT or just the biological filter.

You'll not find in that post anything recommending keeping medication in the QT nor treating fishes for something they don't display. So, add nothing, delete nothing, follow what it recommends is all I can recommend.

http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums.../23584-fish-quarantine-process-step-step.html

If you want to use that QT for invertebrates or marine life sensitive to copper it will need to be cleaned to remove residual copper:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/31684-tank-cleanup-procedures.html

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Great news & thread - so happy for Spot & You !!! Kyle thanks much for sharing & be so dedicated to treating Spot, a real inspiration !!!

+1 - a huge thanks to Lee and Boomer (and Kevin who helped Boomer) for all their help and support here.

 

[redsea reefer]

Very happy to hear about Spot Kyle! Great job...

 

[kyley]

Thanks All. I've heard of LFS' maintaining a low level of copper in their tanks - so just wondered what you and others thought of it.

I also wonder the best way to prevent fish spreading disease that are carriers but show no symptoms? i.e. one of the fish in my DT could have made Spot sick (I don't know that of course), but hasn't ever shown any symptoms. Certainly treating something that isn't known to be there doesn't seem like the best course, but how else can you be sure you're preventing something from getting into the DT? Thanks,
--Kyle

 

[leebca]

If your fish had the parasite(s) of Marine Ich and Marine Velvet, then they are in the display tank. All fish have to be treated.

Copper is a poison, even in low quantities. It will shorten the lifespan of your fish and pretty much keep killing off pods, worms, and other things that come with live rock and bag water the fish are in. Those deaths will cause water quality issues.

LOOK at the LFS tanks that have copper in them. Do you see live rock, invertebrates, etc.? If you want to run your home tank barren and looking like a shop tank, then the use of copper is a possibility -- at the expense of the early death of your fish.

 

[Boomer]

Glad thing worked out Kyel

Now myself and Christen Williams are trying to help Matt Pederson, the 2010 MACNA winner, on his $5,000 Lighting Maroon Clown and its mate, a PNG Maroon, that has the SAME issue as you had. So far things are look'in great for the LMCF good but the PNG Maroon is not out of the water yet but looking better and we are looking taking new action. He needs to get out of that ick infested and ammoniated (0.25ppm) water and into a new tank, with clean water, ick free and treated with Kanamycin.

and

The Lightning Project - The ongoing saga of the PNG Lightning Maroon Clownfish Breeding Project

I agree with Lee, display tanks should NEVER have any kind of drugs added to them. The proper procedure is as Lee sates, all have to be treated. Meaning, get them out in their own QT tank and let the DT sit for a least a month and more to 5-6 weeks, with no fish what so ever. These are all obligated parasite and need a fish host. If there is no fish host in the DT they will die off.

 

[kyley]

I'm not sure where the idea came in that I'd put low level of copper in the *DT*. I would never do that - I meant for the QT for new fish... Thanks,
--Kyle

 

[Boomer]

Ok then

 

[kyley]

Sorry, was in a rush earlier. Boomer, that's one crazy cool fish! Do you have a photo of it with what mine had? You still think it was both Ick and Marine Velvet? Does Marine Velvet function like Ick in that it would need a month to die off w/o a fish host?

All fish that are in the DT except a more recently added one (after the BSJF) have shown no symptoms of any diseases at all and they have all been in there at least 6 weeks... Wouldn't it show up on them if they had anything? Thanks,
--Kyle

 

[Boomer]

Your fish has Ick and IMHO Brook and the same with Matt's. I do not think your fish or Matt's would have made it this long with Velvet. I know awhile back I did say it may be Velvet. Kevin said it looks like Velvet to him but I'm going to have to disagree after thinking it all. Your fish is famous for Brook as is Matt's and is why it is called Clownfish Diseases and BSJFD.

There are carp loads of photos and movies of it on the link in my post above. Many claimed it was not a real fish and the pics where just Photoshopped. Well, I have see it from 2 inches away and it is the real deal . Did you see the price tag I posted above ? ..............$5,000.00.................

Yes, any of them for a month to be sure

 

[Woodstock]

Kyley - I am absolutely thrilled that your fish is cured! Karma to you for sticking with it and not giving up! GREAT work

Leebca & Boomer, you guys rock!

 

[kyley]

Thanks Woodstock!

Yeah Boomer, I saw the pictures and videos of that fish - I was just wondering if there were pictures of it with the same diseases my fish had (pictures of it sick). Also you said:

Yes, any of them for a month to be sure

What were you talking about there? That the other fish not showing any symptoms for 6 weeks+ (in my case) should be okay?

All, I went ahead and posted a summary of my experience with Spot as Lynn suggested. Take care,
--Kyle

 

[Boomer]

No, just because they show no signs does not mean they do not have it. Often health fish develop a immunity to them to a large degree and the fish end up getting maybe just a parasite or two that you may never seen so the cycle continues. Some fish act as carriers, called Vector's. Many, many people have fallen to this thought that they do not have any signs so they must not have. Only later, in a month or months or even a year the fish get put under stress or a new fish is added and POOF the have it and that fish added did NOT have it bu they try to blame it anyway. A classic example is one of my best friends and a very famous guy in this hobby Sanjay. He was breeding and raising a very expensive clown fish. All was fine as he was doing WC with new seawater. Then one day he did not have any made and decided to use water from his famous 500 gal ref tank. He gets home the next day from work and all of clowns, just out of post larval stage are just loaded with it. So, I call him to try and save them but it is to late and all died, like a 100 of them. He never saw any ick in his 500 gal tank and it has been running for years. The clowns spawned again and this time only new WC water, no ick and now he is selling them.

 

[kyley]

Thanks Boomer. What would you do in my situation? QT and treat all my other fish with Cupramine and Formalin Dips - and keep all fish out of the DT for 6 weeks or so? I know that's what Lee would suggest. I just can't see myself doing all that... That's the kind of thing that might make me give up on the hobby

No way my 10 gallon QT could support all my fish, right? Would I need 5 QTs for the 5 fish? Ugh, I couldn't handle that much...

What you said kind of makes me wonder if all fish should be treated in the QT as if they had Ich... If they can be carriers but never show symptoms, you can never be "safe" and keep them from getting sick / spreading Ich and other diseases just by QT alone...

Well, I think I have to take my chances... Put Spot in the DT and hope he - and the other fish - don't get sick again. If they do get sick, I don't know what I'd do, but it's no different than if I decided to treat them right now - thus, take the chance... If they get sick, maybe I'd setup a larger QT and put all fish in it and treat them w/ Cupramine and Formalin both in the tank? I hope it never comes to that.

One question for now Boomer / Lee- what's the best alternative to bio-filtration in a QT? Since so many meds kill off the bacteria, it takes time to build up, etc., what can be used as an alternative? If I do end up having to do a HT for all my fish, I'd want something I could start up quickly and not have to worry too much about ammonia, etc...

Oh, I just remembered another question about Spot's sickness and reuse of the QT. After I get Spot out, do I need to be concerned about Ich/Brook infecting the next fish put in that QT now that Cupramine has killed it all off? Take care,
--Kyle

 

[kyley]

Just a quick update for anyone following this thread. My BSJF has been back in the DT for just over 3 weeks now - happy and healthy! Thanks again to all that helped!

Here are a couple pics of him back in the DT (I took these about 10 days ago though):

I posted a summary of the treatment I did for Spot here. Take care,
--Kyle

 

[tnwillia]

Great work Kyle & you got some super help. Was that a learning experience or what!

 

[Boomer]

That is Great news Kyle