Best Sump contents for eating NitrAtes

[Lee]

Ever since I got into this hobby, I've always had a problem with runaway nitrAte levels. When my tank was FOWLER, I'd do weekly 10-15% water changes, and it seemed like I my nitrate levels were always hovering above 40ppm. I initially attributed this to me skipping a water change or too and allowing levels to get too high, and because I didn't do huge water changes, I was never able to get them down. (40ppm - 15% water changes keeping me in a cycle of going from 40ppm down to 35ppm, then back up to 40ppm, and down to 35ppm again... and so on)

So when I moved to a larger tank, I was certain to do weekly water changes, and now I remove about 20 gallons each week. (from a 90g) Over 20% water changes per week. Yet I still am unable to get lower than 20ppm.

I've read tons and tons of posts on here discussing nitrate reduction, and I've heard most of the suggestions, so I won't make you guys repeat stuff you've said a million times. But I'm almost ready to get a sump tank plumbed in, and I'm looking for suggestions on the best possible sump/fuge contents for the sole purpose of reducing nitrAtes. I know virtually nothing about Refugium contents

Details on my setup:

-90 gallon
-120 lbs of established LR
-2 1200gph powerheads
-2" sandbed
-Remora Pro skimmer
-Fluval 100g canister filter (to be removed when sump is built)
-20 small snails (their name escapes me)
-zero treacherous evil crabs

Contents:
-Medium Yellow Tang
-small Flame Angel
-2 medium False Clowns
-Large African Yellow Belly Hippo Tang
-5 small Chromis
-1 small Banggai Cardinal
-possibly 2 shrimp (they may be dead, I haven't seen them in months)

Corals:
-Large Torch LPS
-Large green Galaxae LPS
-Small red Modern Cynarina LPS

I'm sure many of you are thinking canister filter might be an issue, as its not completing the cycle of making Nitrates into Nitrogen gas. I've taken that advice and decided to ditch the canister filter when the sump goes in.

Another piece of RS advice I've taken is to test my tap water. Get this: 20ppm of Nitrates in my tap water. :smck: Yeah. Crazy. I realize that I should be using RO water, and an RO/DI unit is on my "to do" list. I'm in an apartment, so its not so easy to set one up. Still working out the details on that....

So given that I'm stuck using crappy tap water for the moment and I have a rather large bio load, what kinds of recommendations do you have for my sump/refugium contents? I have the pump and plumbing all ready but I haven't constructed the actual sump tank yet, so any suggestions are welcome!

 

[Tru2nr]

without a canister filter and utilizing a sump/refugium will help export and process the nitrates also your bioload my be a bit high as far as a RO/DI system all you need is a faucet adapter since you live in an apt. i have one and run it off my kitchen sink only place the adapter would work this is how mine is

 

[vdituri]

That's how I have my RO unit hooked up in my apartment.
Homedepot had an adapter that went from my faucet to a regular outside hose, then I added a hose splitter adapter that has an on/off valve for each side. I leave it hooked up and switch between RO unit and drinking water when I need to.

Adding a refugium will help because it gives you additional sand and/or liverock to help process the nitrates into nitrogen. You can add liverock to the sump part to help as well.

The RO unit is your best first step. If your new water is at starting at 20ppm, it's really hard to ask your system to get it any lower than that.

 

[lcstorc]

As far as ideal sump contents, usually a sump has a place the water enters, the skimmer compartment and a return area. If you have enough room you can add a fuge area. In the fuge area you can keep anything from a DSB to various macro algaes preferrably cheato. If you are going to keep macro then you need to have a light on. Most people run the fuge light opposite the tank light to help keep the ph steady.

 

[Craig Manoukian]

Live Rock and Chaeto!

 

[framerguy]

Get the source water issue taken care of either with above advice or using distilled water from the grocery store. Next set up the sump and either have a fuge included in it or attach one. A 10 gallon tank would suffice as the fuge if space is an issue. It doesn't have to be very big to help a lot. You could include a DSB (4.5"+) if you wanted for natural nitrate reduction. I have found Cheatomorpha to be a tremendous nitrate eater. It is also a great haven for pod production which benefits the tank inhabitants. Hope that's what you were looking for.

 

[Lee]

So LR, DSB, and cheatomorpha? So I'll probably need a light for that?

That's how I have my RO unit hooked up in my apartment.
Homedepot had an adapter that went from my faucet to a regular outside hose, then I added a hose splitter adapter that has an on/off valve for each side. I leave it hooked up and switch between RO unit and drinking water when I need to.

Adding a refugium will help because it gives you additional sand and/or liverock to help process the nitrates into nitrogen. You can add liverock to the sump part to help as well.

The RO unit is your best first step. If your new water is at starting at 20ppm, it's really hard to ask your system to get it any lower than that.

I'll have to set up something more permanent in my laundry room; tapping the kitchen faucet won't fly. (I get yelled at for not making the bed...)

 

[framerguy]

Chuck speaks a lot about refugiums and how to set them up here...Chuck's Addiction.. The lighting he uses is inexpensive curly flourescents and a light socket. I am setting up a new large system and will be using Chucks research and designs as my guide. I think you are on the right track with adding a sump and refugium. They are the simplest things we can do to help ensure success. Chuck goes on to say that the refugium needs to be 4x the DT to equal the support volumes found in the ocean but I still think that any refugium is better than none at all. Not many folks will set up a 400 gallon refugium to support a 100 gallon DT. My refugium/DT ratio will be about 1/2 (200 fuge/400DT). Check his site out and read his research papers. They are very enlightening.

 

[lcstorc]

I don't know where the article is right now but perhaps a google search will find it. There is a way to make a remote DSB in a 5g bucket. Basically the bucket is filed with sand but I forget how the plumbing goes. From what I remember it was really easy.

 

[Rcpilot]

I don't buy the excuse about living in an apartment for not having a proper RO/DI unit. I live in a tiny apartment and I have a 6-stage RO-dual DI unit under my kitchen sink.

Installing an RO unit is about as complicated as changing a flat tire. It's NOT permanent. You DON'T have to tap any copper lines or do anything that would compromise the plumbing under the sink.

When I hooked up my RO unit, I went to Home Depot and spent $20 on plumbing fittings. I installed my unit in about an hour. I put a valve on the supply line so that I can shut it off and disconnect my lines when I move. I'll leave the valve in place and let the apartment people deal with it if they don't like it. My guess is, they'll never even notice it. It'll take me 30 seconds to disconnect my RO unit when I move.

You could have a nice RO unit if it was a priority to you. Don't use the apartment as an excuse not to have one. It can be done and it's not hard.

For nitrate problems, you need to use a DSB, cheato and a good skimmer. Without those 3 things, you'll always have nitrate problems. The skimmer is the most important piece of equipment any reefer can purchase. If you don't have a good one--you need to spend the bucks and get one.

 

[DaveK]

Ever since I got into this hobby, I've always had a problem with runaway nitrAte levels. ...
Details on my setup:

-90 gallon
-120 lbs of established LR
-2 1200gph powerheads
-2" sandbed
-Remora Pro skimmer
-Fluval 100g canister filter (to be removed when sump is built)
-20 small snails (their name escapes me)
-zero treacherous evil crabs

...

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are trying to solve the nitrate problem with a band-aid approach. Your system has several major problems that contribute largely to the nitrate problem. Until you correct those problems, you are throwing money away on a refugium, and not solfing the problem.

First, you admit that your tap water has a nitrate reading of about 20 ppm. Your number one priority should be to get a DO/DI unit. You just cant solve the problem until you do this period.

Second, your filtration system is going to contribute greatly to the nitrate problem. Major upgrades to this are also needed. You mentioned that you wanted to replace the canister filter with a sump. This is an excellent idea. Canister filters tend to become dirt traps and nitrate factories, if you don't clean them at least weekly. I recommend you consider a berlin type sump. If you want a refugium also, consider that an additional option, which could be added later.

Your skimmer is also too small. The Aqua C Remora is a good skimmer. I have one on my 30 gal reef, but it's more suited for a tank about half the size you have. Get a quality new skimmer, sizing it for about a 200-250 gal tank. While a skimmer isn't required on a reef system, it's one of those things that are "extremely desirable". It's one of the few filtration systems that remove waste products before the rest of the biological filtration needs to deal with it.

Next work on your sandbed. A two inch sandbed can cause problems. it's not deep enough for really good denitrification, but it's deep enough to became a dirt trap and nitrate factory.

Vacuum the sandbed, and then either add more sand to bring it up to 4 inches, or remove most of it, using just enough to cover the bottom or go bare bottom.

Nitrate control is an ongoing battle. You can win it though with the right equipment and tank maintenance.

 

[kathywithbirds]

How about another "bandaid" in the meantime? The soap dish chaeto worked great in my 37. Get one of those nifty overpriced suctioncup soap dishes or some other suctioncup container that's SW safe adn will hold a nice ball of chaeto. Reduced the trates for me. It could give you a little relief (maybe just a tiny bit) while you're RO/DI shoppign. I actually liked teh look of it too.

 

[Lee]

Not to put too fine a point on it, but you are trying to solve the nitrate problem with a band-aid approach. Your system has several major problems that contribute largely to the nitrate problem. Until you correct those problems, you are throwing money away on a refugium, and not solfing the problem.

Well you're right, but its an ongoing process. If I had an unlimited budget, I would just buy all the best equipment and be done with it. But thats not the case, so I look at the aquarium, figure out what could be improved, and decide how to improve it. Right now, filtration and water are the biggest bottlenecks, so I'm working to improve them. I'm not asking for a quick and easy solution to minimizing nitrates, I am just doing things one step at a time, and asking for advice to make those steps as effective as possible.

Second, your filtration system is going to contribute greatly to the nitrate problem. Major upgrades to this are also needed. You mentioned that you wanted to replace the canister filter with a sump. This is an excellent idea. Canister filters tend to become dirt traps and nitrate factories, if you don't clean them at least weekly. I recommend you consider a berlin type sump. If you want a refugium also, consider that an additional option, which could be added later.

yes, this is the task at hand. I have the drain and return plumbed, I'm cutting glass baffles for the sump/fuge now, and I'm trying to figure out what to put in the fuge.

Your skimmer is also too small. The Aqua C Remora is a good skimmer. I have one on my 30 gal reef, but it's more suited for a tank about half the size you have. Get a quality new skimmer, sizing it for about a 200-250 gal tank. While a skimmer isn't required on a reef system, it's one of those things that are "extremely desirable". It's one of the few filtration systems that remove waste products before the rest of the biological filtration needs to deal with it.

If I'm not mistaken, there are 2 sizes of the Aqua C Remora skimmer; I do have the larger of the two, the Remora Pro. When I have the sump plumbed inline, I'll have more room to upgrade to a larger skimmer if thats necessary.

Next work on your sandbed. A two inch sandbed can cause problems. it's not deep enough for really good denitrification, but it's deep enough to became a dirt trap and nitrate factory.

Vacuum the sandbed, and then either add more sand to bring it up to 4 inches, or remove most of it, using just enough to cover the bottom or go bare bottom.

I did not know this, I'll take this into consideration; maybe lower the sand level a bit. Thanks

 

[Woodstock]

LOTS of things contribute to high nitrates but IME, the things that have reduced nitrAtes in my system significantly were:

• Large refugium lit well and filled with chaetomorpha (harvested regularly)
• Reduced bioload! (I only have 8 fish in my 120 reef...2 large 6 small)
• Removing all mechanical filters (sponges, floss, bioballs, etc.)
• Adding a 3" sand bed (fine aragonite sand) to host the anaerobic bacteria that turn nitrAtes into harmless gas

My nitrAtes have been zero for a long time now. I feed VERY heavily also. 3-5 times a day I feed my fish to saturation (till they won't eat anymore) with my homemade mush.
HTH

 

[Lee]

I don't buy the excuse about living in an apartment for not having a proper RO/DI unit. I live in a tiny apartment and I have a 6-stage RO-dual DI unit under my kitchen sink.

Installing an RO unit is about as complicated as changing a flat tire. It's NOT permanent. You DON'T have to tap any copper lines or do anything that would compromise the plumbing under the sink.

When I hooked up my RO unit, I went to Home Depot and spent $20 on plumbing fittings. I installed my unit in about an hour. I put a valve on the supply line so that I can shut it off and disconnect my lines when I move. I'll leave the valve in place and let the apartment people deal with it if they don't like it. My guess is, they'll never even notice it. It'll take me 30 seconds to disconnect my RO unit when I move.

You could have a nice RO unit if it was a priority to you. Don't use the apartment as an excuse not to have one. It can be done and it's not hard.

For nitrate problems, you need to use a DSB, cheato and a good skimmer. Without those 3 things, you'll always have nitrate problems. The skimmer is the most important piece of equipment any reefer can purchase. If you don't have a good one--you need to spend the bucks and get one.

While I appreciate your enthusiasm and your opinion, I think we could make some improvements in the actual presentation of ideas.

Didn't mom ever tell you, "if you don't have something nice to say, don't say anything at all?"

Being nice to people is very easy. It CAN be done, even when you don't like what you read. Let me show you. Instead of saying "I don't buy your excuse," and then attributing my lack of an RO unit to a personal deficiency that I have, you could have instead said something like this: "Despite living in an apartment, there are many good ways to set up an RO unit, so I would definitely recommend making that a top priority. Its easy! Here is how I have my RO unit set up in my apartment:" And then you describe what you did.

Then you could post some pictures in this thread so that other people can see good ways to set up an RO unit:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...do-you-guys-have-your-ro-di-units-set-up.html

See? Simple.:woody:

 

[Lee]

LOTS of things contribute to high nitrates but IME, the things that have reduced nitrAtes in my system significantly were:

• Large refugium lit well and filled with chaetomorpha (harvested regularly)
• Reduced bioload! (I only have 8 fish in my 120 reef...2 large 6 small)
• Removing all mechanical filters (sponges, floss, bioballs, etc.)
• Adding a 3" sand bed (fine aragonite sand) to host the anaerobic bacteria that turn nitrAtes into harmless gas

My nitrAtes have been zero for a long time now. I feed VERY heavily also. 3-5 times a day I feed my fish to saturation (till they won't eat anymore) with my homemade mush.
HTH

Thats awesome. Do your nitrates ever exceed zero? Or does your tank just turn all of them into nitrogen? Whats your water change schedule like?

 

[Woodstock]

Hummm... I can't remember the last time my nitrAtes were above 10ppm (an acceptible 'high' amount).
The last several months I have only been performing 20% water changes every 2-4 weeks but I prefer to do them weekly.

 

[BigAl07]

You've been given some very good advice.

If I woke up in your shoes here is how I think I would attack it..

#1 PURCHASE some quality RO/DI water for your next water changes until you get a unit of your own. For many months I sold RO/DI to local reefers just to help them out and help offset the initial cost of my RO/DI unit. It was a Win-Win. Once you have a source of ZERO Nitrate water do a significant water change. At least 50% to get them down to acceptable levels. While your at it check around your tank for any "Dead zones" where the current is allowing detritus to build up and get skunky.

Keep working towards your sump/fuge idea. I think that's your 2nd most important task at hand.

#3 Add to your clean up crew. That seems kind of low to me.

#4 Water your water closely for a few weeks and once you get your "Trates" down take notice to how quickly they build back up and adjust your water change amount and frequency to match that. Even the BEST of tanks will have nitrates creep up when we neglect water changes. It takes a fairly well set-up and sizable fuge to be able to handle the nitrates with ZERO water changes.

Hang in there. Your research will pay off in the end.

Good luck and HAPPY REEFING!

 

[Lee]

Hummm... I can't remember the last time my nitrAtes were above 10ppm (an acceptible 'high' amount).
The last several months I have only been performing 20% water changes every 2-4 weeks but I prefer to do them weekly.

Wow, thats awesome. That would be very nice. Right now I'm doing a little over 20% per week. I have something to look forward to, er... something to look forward to NOT doing as often..

 

[Lee]

You've been given some very good advice.

If I woke up in your shoes here is how I think I would attack it..

#1 PURCHASE some quality RO/DI water for your next water changes until you get a unit of your own. For many months I sold RO/DI to local reefers just to help them out and help offset the initial cost of my RO/DI unit. It was a Win-Win. Once you have a source of ZERO Nitrate water do a significant water change. At least 50% to get them down to acceptable levels. While your at it check around your tank for any "Dead zones" where the current is allowing detritus to build up and get skunky.

Keep working towards your sump/fuge idea. I think that's your 2nd most important task at hand.

#3 Add to your clean up crew. That seems kind of low to me.

#4 Water your water closely for a few weeks and once you get your "Trates" down take notice to how quickly they build back up and adjust your water change amount and frequency to match that. Even the BEST of tanks will have nitrates creep up when we neglect water changes. It takes a fairly well set-up and sizable fuge to be able to handle the nitrates with ZERO water changes.

Hang in there. Your research will pay off in the end.

Good luck and HAPPY REEFING!

Thank you, excellent advice, I appreciate it. I'll get an RO unit going asap, but my sump is like 92% complete, which is why I was focused on it. I just need to silicone some stuff and fill it, and its done.

Do you have any advice on the cleanup crew? All I have is somewhere between 20-30 of the smaller snails, and a peppermint shrimp. (and maybe a skunk cleaner shrimp)