alk low, pH high - again

prow

Well-Known Member
1/7/09 at 11pm ph was 7.99 (high for the day was 8.02) no dosing

1/8/09 at 5am ph was 7.96 (that is the overnight low perhaps it will go down to 7.94 before the day time upswing) no dosing, test results
FYI; my last 5am ph check of 7.93 on 1/6/09 did not go down that was the overnight low, so this reading of 7.96 might not go down.
ph 7.96-8.02
Ca+ 410
Mg+ 1290
alk 3.77meq/l or 188.5 ppm (went from 3.66 to 3.77 after 60ml dosed)

so in the end all that changed, from what i can see, is my alk went up. i will leave my alk there. currently i am at NSW levels with my given ph-8.0ish ph 400ish Ca+ with a alk of 3.8ish...
 

prow

Well-Known Member
1/7/09 at 11pm ph was 7.99 (high for the day was 8.02) no dosing

1/8/09 at 5am ph was 7.96 (that is the overnight low perhaps it will go down to 7.94 before the day time upswing) no dosing, test results
FYI; my last 5am ph check of 7.93 on 1/6/09 did not go down that was the overnight low, so this reading of 7.96 might not go down.
ph 7.96-8.02
Ca+ 410
Mg+ 1290
alk 3.77meq/l or 188.5 ppm (went from 3.66 to 3.77 after 60ml dosed)

so in the end all that changed, from what i can see, is my alk went up. i will leave my alk there. currently i am at NSW levels with my given ph-8.0ish ph 400ish Ca+ with a alk of 3.8ish...the only thing i wonder about is the mechanisms involved. seem like the Na- HCO3 cotransport and Na-H exchange are the major player here, k+ H- exchange too..O well i think i would more interested in it if it worked:)
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
I thought you were trying to get your alk lower than that? Without additional Balance dosing, are you expecting that to drop a bit?

pH was 7.82 this am, so I figured I really should test:

136 alk
380 calc

I dosed 60 ml each of Randy's Two Part.

Not sure what adjustment I should make to the reactor, but obviously I need to make an adjustment!
 

prow

Well-Known Member
I thought you were trying to get your alk lower than that?
i was but what i expected to get out of balance did not happen. i decreased my Ca+reactor flow(and bubble rate because if the ph went up i did not want my alk and Ca+ that high "lower ph's keep things in solution so you can run higher Ca+ and alk levels then you could with higher ph's) the Ca+ levels came down and the alk started to, but because of dosing balance the alk still went up. so i decided to run the Ca+reactor as it was set to maintain levels. the Ca+ level stayed the same but my alk went up(with dosing balance). then i decided to give balance another chance and continued to dose until either the ph went up or my alk went to 3.80. the alk went to 3.77 thats close enough, no ph change, so i stopped dosing. balance did not work...the only reason i wanted the alk lower was because i wanted to be ready for any increase in ph that could lead to percipitations(snow storms) in my tank.
ex.
ph 8.0
Ca 410
Alk 4.0
no issues here, these are normal levels

ph 8.4
Ca 410
alk 4.0
likey to get percipitates here. due to the higher ph.

same Ca+ and alk only the ph differs, this is why i started to reduce the alk, thinking that balance was going to bring the ph up, since it did not raise my ph i am cool with the higher alk level balance caused, but if the ph did go up i would need/want that alk lower for sure.

Without additional Balance dosing, are you expecting that to drop a bit?
yeah but it will take some time. couple months to get it back via water changes,...no worries though its ok where it is as long as the alk dosent continue to go up and the ph doesnt start shooting upwards.. if the alk goes to 4.0 with my current alk and Ca i will have do something about it, my reactor is set so the alk will not come down much with it running. it will take some time to come down. i could just turn off my reactor and let the alk fall and add CaCl- to keep Ca+ levels good until it comes down where i want it then start the reactor back up, that would take about two days. but thats more work(testing, dosing, ph changes to deal with ect..) besides slowly lowering levels is better anyway;). i could just leave it there, it is ok, but during the summer i will have to make adjustments beause then the doors and things will be open and no heater running either so my CO2 levels will be better(lower) and teh ph will rise..IME the ph will go up about 0.2 overall. so i have a few months to get the alk down before summer comes and my ph starts to go up. i hope i said that so you get it.......

pH was 7.82 this am, so I figured I really should test:

136 alk
380 calc

I dosed 60 ml each of Randy's Two Part.

Not sure what adjustment I should make to the reactor, but obviously I need to make an adjustment!
easy, but first stop dosing other additives. you will never get the reactor dialed while adding other things.

you do need to turn the reactor up(increase Ca+/alk additions). just add five bubbles(CO2) per min more and adjust the effluent flow so the ph is right (it will need to be increased). then check it the next day and see where you are at. if still on the low side with alk and Ca+, do the same. if its too much reduce CO2 bubble a couple bubbles per min and reduce effluent so ph is right for the reactor. as the alk goes up the ph should come up some with it.
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
I just couldn't leave my tank that low this morning knowing that the reactor was set so low and that it would get worse during the day. 60 ml of each is about what the tank uses in a day.

I will adjust both the BMP and rate of flow on the reactor now, but it is really hard to get anything in between where it is now and what I had it at before. Then I will test again Saturday.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
why would the ph get worse during the day? the ph should go up. you could just add what you have left of balance to bring the alk up:D. your Ca+ is ok, though i would get up to 400.

what reactor do you? or if you know what regulator?
 

prow

Well-Known Member
hello, thought i would post my ph levels for a couple days now that i stopped dosing balance.

1/8/09 at 10pm ph was 8.11(that is also the high for the day)

1/9/09 at 5am ph was 8.00(that is also the low over night)


how much balance do you have left? if you have enough use it up, it might bring your alk up enough to compensate for the lower ph's and keep your ph above 7.9. i am not sure if it will hold but my current alk levels seems to helping my ph out some in that regaurd. will have to give it a couple days to see if it holds up. keep in mind that NSW with a ph of 8.0, would have a alk level of 4.0ish and Ca+ of 405ish..with a ph of 8.0 and Ca+ levels of 405ish you can raise your alk quite a bit before worring about percipitation..the alk would have to go up somewhere around 7-8meq/l (350ppm-400ppm) before percipitation will occur with your current ph. you could say that instead of higher alk levels compensating for lower ph's its the lower ph's that is compensating for the higher alk(the lower ph is keeping things in solutioin)...
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
I have most the bottle of Balance left.

This morning's pH is 7.8, yesterday's high was 8.0. Chamber pH is currently 6.57.

I wasn't referring to the pH, I was referring to the alk/calc levels. It is a Geo612 Reactor, the regulator is Reef Fanatic. So, I'm confused (again - I know, you are shocked). Don't I want my reactor set to sustain my levels? If I set it to raise them, then I would have to adjust it again after it got there. I would think that would create more yo-yoing than if I started at the correct levels. The instructions even say "before dialing in the reactor you will want the target values for the aquarium in place. Manually adjust these values with the appropriate buffers."

:java:
 

prow

Well-Known Member
dam, i am late for work.. i will explain better latter but you can adjust the reactor and that will raise or lower alk and Ca+ accordingly, both at the same time. have to go now but will post about it tonight...
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
lol - me too.

I understand that I can raise and lower both with the reactor, no explanation of that needed.

This morning's alk is 148 ppm. Didn't test anything else.
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
Today's low pH was 7.73 at about 9:00 am just before MH lights came on. The high was only 7.89.

Update - alk is currently 152.

I will recalibrate probes tomorrow. I promise!
 

prow

Well-Known Member
yeah that ph dosent seem right.

on the reactor i was going to go into the need for adjusting levels prior to dialing in the reactor. that would be ideal but as long your alk and Ca+ are with in acceptable levels and fairly balanced your fine with dialing in the reactor first then adding sups to bring things just right....

well for my tank the ph is running the same, at 10pm it was 8.08(day high was 8.10) but i am getting a diatom bloom. noticed it the past few days. this is the biggest bloom my tank has seen, its not huge just the biggest ever in this tank...did nothing different except dose balance and levels really did not change much ect for alk. i do believe its the additions of balance that caused this blooming. Na+ and K+ equilibrate osmotic pressure but higher levels K+ and Na+ also effect silicates via ion exchange. also hydroxides, as ph goes up, say 7.8 to 8.2 hydroxides precipitate and co-precipitation of silicates can result.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
no, i think i would have got it either way. maybe less or a shorter bloom. no worries though its easy to deal with. if it dosent go away on its own in the next week i will just toss in a few more snails. its mainly on my sand and glass, its unseen on my rock so far but if it starts to populate the rock i may reduce my photoperiod for a couple days.
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
I guess our general impression is Balance is not worth spending $$ on.

I just beefed up the CUC in all my tanks this morning. Couldn't pass up snails for 9 cents each from reefcleaners.org! Oh, and I got some mangroves for the 125 and several red macros for the rebuild of the 55 planted softy tank.
 

prow

Well-Known Member
at least not for the levels of CO2 we are dealing with...

0.09 cent snails nice, i am going to go check that deal out, good timing:thumbup:
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
Nope your timing is way off, it was a week ago. The snails are smaller than I have ever gotten, but they are dwarf ceriths so I expected small. The turbos on the other hand are larger than I've ever had!
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
188 ppm alk
405 ppm calc
1290 ppm mag
20 ppm nitrates
0.1 ppm phosphates
0 iron
77.5 temp
7.78 pH sump
6.55 ph chamber

Still haven't recalibrated the probes. I'm surprized in the jump in alk. I guess I still have some tuning.
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
Both probes have recalibrated and read within .01 of each other (7.00 and 7.01 in the calibration solution after recalibrating). For the tank probe I used 7.0 and 10.0 calibration solutions; the chamber probe 4.0 and 7.0 solutions.

They were off in the opposite direction of each other about the same amount.

pH in the sump is currently 7.96. I expected higher than this, but this is fine since the alk is sooo high right now.

With the pH probe in the chamber, I dont need to adjust both the BPM and the effuent flow rate, do I...as long as the solenoid isn't constantly turning on or off and I have a pH reading about 6.55? Anyway, I've been adjusting both. I think I need to slow the effluent flow rate and leave the BPM alone to reduce the amout of alk released into the tank? Is that right?
 

bluespotjawfish

Well-Known Member
Oh my, I plugged the selonoid into the powerstrip instead of the controller. Fortunately I checked everything about 1/2 hour after I hooked it all back up (at 6.35 pH).
 
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