alk low, pH high - again

[bluespotjawfish]

I expected I needed to add more of it, but didn't want to until someone told me to....Boomer?

FYI, most of my pH drop occurs within the first few hours after the MH's turn off. Even with the VHO lights still on it is already dropped to 7.9.

 

[bluespotjawfish]

Well, I didn't retest yesterday like I said I would, but tracked the pH throughout the day:

7.87 pH am
8.34 pH afternoon
7.95 pH pm wVHO's still on

7.97 pH am today before lights on

I also added another 25 ml of BALANCE yesterday.

 

[prow]

not looking so good on your ph swing there. i got in my balance for my tank. i will be your gennie pig now...my tank setup is:
tank 180 glass with two 34gal sumps, good amount of plumbing so fig 220gal after water displacement. i run a Ca+reactor with 97%Ca+ media and 3% Mg+ media. i use reef crystals salt mix and change out 30gal every two weeks or so, adjust mixes by adding seachems adv. Ca+ 1tsp and 10tbls Mg+ flakes to 30gal RC salt mixed to a salinity of 35ppt(RO/DI used). salt mix batches avg levels after dosings is Ca+ 430, Mg+ 1350, alk 3.6-4.23(lastest batch has been testing high in alk usually it runs 3.6ish)

during the last month my tank parameters lowest and highest except the past 3-4days;
Ca+ 420-440ppm
alk 3.2-3.5meq/l
Mg+ 1320-1400ppm
ph 7.94-8.06 (lowest past month was 7.94 just the past couple days it started dipping into the high 7.8's, what lead me to try balance)
it started getting too cold to leave windows open around Xmas. the i started seeing the ph dip. i decided to try balance before adding a kalk drip. the other day i started to dose. i should not have started now because i also needed change out my reactor media, which was on the same order as balance. but decided to give it go anyway. over new years eve my ph went down to 7.80 at 2am, that was the lowest ph ever the high ph was 7.99 at 11pm so i turned the Ca+reactor off for the night. here is how it has gone so far from there..

1/1/09 lowest ph 7.80 at 2am high was 7.99 at 11pm when i turned the reactor off.

1/2/09 at 11am ph was 7.95(low over night was 7.91). i dosed 70ml over 30min. the ph did go up about 0.1 with in 5min or so after the 30min dosing. but it quickly went down over the next 30min or so and stabilized around 7.94 just before lights came on.

1/2/09 at 11pm the ph was 7.95(high for the day was 8.05). i dosed 70ml of balance over 30min. ph again went up about 0.1 and came back down again. i change Ca+reactor media and started up the reactor.

1/3/09 at 11am ph was 7.88(this is also the over night low). tested tank before dosing another 70ml of balance.
Ca+ 400(due to reactor off for a day, i think)
Mg+ 1350
Alk 2.9(due to reactor off, i think)
temp is stable 79-80 BTW.

ph went from 7.88 to 8.04 after dosing at 11am and came back down and is now stable, 12:50pm, at 7.95.

 

[bluespotjawfish]

I hope it works for you. I can't say that it has done much in my tank, but I don't know if I am using enough. Like you, I get a slight rise, but then it falls back down.

I took my scrubber down last night. Too much work to keep it from backing up water in the fuge.

 

[prow]

1/4/09 at 9am ph was 7.76, tested(was reading cal. solution 0.5 low), so recalibrated my probe and the reread was 7.81. i adjusted my reactor down a little from where it was before changing out the media. i also decided to drop my temp and adjusted it to run 77-79. tank parameter this am..
temp 78.0
ph 7.81
Alk 3.31
Ca+ 410
Mg+ 1250(this is an interesting drop, but likely just my testing, one or two drops changes it a good 100, will see next testing round)

this am dose of "balance" was 70ml. ph went up around 1.5, but this time did not come down right away. however, though more slowly it did come back down to 7.81. so i dosed another 20ml(total of 90ml for this am dose) to finish off the bottle. the ph went up and has settled at 8.0. i dont contribute all this to adding extra balance, as its a nice day and the windows and front door are now open(that usually raises ph 0.5-1.0ish). i will attribute a raise in ph of at least 1.0, to balance more likey 1.5....so far the ph has not moved from 8.0 over 30min now, like past dosings...

i did get two bottles so i will continue with dosing tonight. it appears like i have reached a balance. not sure though. the extra 20ml raised the ph 1.9 and it is staying there. it could be related to the extra dosing or the accumulation of dosings and the 20ml got it over the hump. or it could be related to the open doors and windows, where the 20ml got it there but the open doors are what is keeping there. or a combo of all hummmmm......

 

[bluespotjawfish]

I'm glad to see that you finally hurt your own brain - lol!

Yesterday's high pH was like 8.36. I freaked out this morning when the pH read 7.46. I turned on all the lights, but then promptly cleaned the probe. I placed the probe in the sump and it read 7.8. Test results this am.

190 ppm alk
395 ppm calc
1310 ppm Mag
10 Nitrate (dropped substantially without the scrubber!)
0.1 Phos

I dosed 30 ml of calc. I will continue to dose to get it to 400-410 range. Then will begin using BALANCE again. Not sure if I should make any adjustments to the calc reactor.

 

[prow]

sounds like you where not using enough balance. i am hoping now that i see a good rise in ph, with my last dosing, future dosings will not need to be as much and will last longer. we will see...my target is to keep ph 8.1-8.3. i know i had/have a CO2 issue why i kept my alk on the high side. but i dont think of that as a problem, ph was running on the low side but stayed above 7.9 with a swing under 0.2(IMO, its the higher alk levels that keep it stable,<0.2 swings) this tank and past tanks with Ca+reators have been running a ph 7.9-8.1 for years while getting great growth and color on the corals. anyway i am starting to reduce my reactor some and lower the alk, if all goes well and i do get a stable ph of 8.1-8.3 i plan on keeping the alk around 3.0meq/l. currently i am reducing alk a little while raising ph with balance. your ph swing still is not good, if that is ture readings-dont count those last swings cleaning it seems have to been needed. for mine, tonights and tomorrow dosings and readings will be the tell as far as using balance. FYI my ph is still at 8.00, its now be well over an hour, closer to two. if it works out then you may want to follow and bump up your balance dosing, but wait and see what happens with my tank tomorrow.

yeah i hear you on the scubber, for me they are way too much work. some have no issue cleaning them a couple times a week, thats not for me, lol...

hope you dont mind me posting my testing out "balance" here. i fig my tank is and has been stable with a known CO2 issue. i fig you can get a good idea of how effective it is in dealing with excess CO2 and how/what adjustments i make while dosing(like lowering of alk while raising ph, ex..NSW runs a alk level of 3.8ish and a Ca+ of 410ish while ph runs 8.0ish-i was keeping my alk at around 3.5, Ca+ 430 and ph of 8.0ish--now with a ph of 8.2ish NSW runs a alk of 2.5ish, Ca+ 410. so while i raise my ph from 8.0ish to 8.2ish i am also lowering my alk from 3.5ish to 3.0 ish). lowering(with reactor adjustments) so far my adjustments changed the alk from 3.5ish to 3.3ish lowered my Ca+ from 430ish to 410ish. now(if balance works out) i may have to remove some Mg+ media in the reactor to keep alk levels at 3.0ish and prevent Ca+ levels from droping. Mg+ media gives twice the alk as Ca+media. O BTW raising ph increases the carbonate concentration so alk is something to watch. with your current ph and alk avg. readings, rasing the ph from 7.9ish to 8.2 will be more risky with regards to precipitation--i would lower your alk some(reduce reactor) as you raise ph with balance or other.........its ok with lower ph's, your current 7.85 am pH
8.05 pm pH, but might want to lower it some before/while raising ph.

 

[bluespotjawfish]

I'm glad you are testing Balance!

To lower the alk, do I lower the BMP or the effluent rate? I haven't changed the effuent rate since I put it in. I've only made a few minor adjustments to the BMP. It is currently about 30 BMP.

Is this strange -- with the kalk reactor I always had to add more alk than calc; with the calcium reactor the calc is low?

pH is currently 7.91

 

[prow]

To lower the alk, do I lower the BMP or the effluent rate? I haven't changed the effuent rate since I put it in. I've only made a few minor adjustments to the BMP. It is currently about 30 BMP.

Is this strange -- with the kalk reactor I always had to add more alk than calc; with the calcium reactor the calc is low?

pH is currently 7.91

i would reduce the effuent rate some and then reduce the BMP so the ph of the effuent is around 6.5-6.6--FYI the BMP rate is a ref to use just for adjusting your reactor as the bubbles in my reactor maybe bigger or smaller so its not good to use when comparing to others. but on yours you could use it, adjust the BMP to 20 then adjust your effuent so the ph is 6.5-6.6ish. check levels the next day and we can go from there. just doing this should help your reduce your ph swings and increase ph levels some, via less CO2 additions, while lowering you alk at the same time. you may need to bring your Ca+ up some but maybe not, lets find out what effect adjusting your Ca+reactor alone to maintain alk levels of 3.3 will have on things. make the adjustments to the reactor(20-BPM CO2 with effuent adjusted so flows ph is 6.5-6.6ish), reclean and calibrate ph probes if needed, hold off on dosing balance for now. test Ca+/Alk in the am, check ph over night low and high, post and we will go from there. before making anyother adjustment lets get the Ca+reactor dialed so Alk levels are stable around 3.3meq/l

i forgot do you have two ph probes??
FYI; after adjusting the reactors BMP to 20 and getting the effuent so the ph is 6.5-6 recheck it in a hour or so and make any little adjustments to the effuent to keep the ph right...sometimes it takes little adjustments to keep things right and dial the saturation in. after setting up and dailing it in, once the saturation point is stable future adjustments will not need those little adjustments..if that made sense...

 

[bluespotjawfish]

Yes I have two pH probes. One is usually in the tank, the other is in the chamber. It is 6.67

I am using a RF pH Controllor to control the pH in the chamber. I forget what it shuts off at. It's somewhere in this thread, I'll have to find it.

I forget, I reduce the rate of flow to get the pH in the chamber down? It is already a sloowww drip. When I tried to turn it any more it shut down.

The BMP is about 22, as close as I could get it to 20 without it shutting off.

 

[bluespotjawfish]

pH 6.5 to 6.7 is what the RF Controller is set to.

Can you believe that Boomer is just letting us play like this by ourselves? :whstlr: :away:

 

[bluespotjawfish]

The tank was stable yesterday within a few tenths of 79 degress and is 79 degrees this morning too. Not sure I trust the probe though. I will recalibrate it when I get a chance. The pH in the chamber is 6.56 this morning.

 

[prow]

well temp is good how is the ph in the tank?

on my tank i did my night checks and dosing last night, i did my testing this am, but my friend just called and is on his way to pick me up, scuba time...so we are going for a quick sec.(couple hours) and i will post results and dosing when i get back. i want to check the ph at 11am, its 9am here now so i will kill a couple hours going scuba diving and get back to ya after...

 

[bluespotjawfish]

Oh my, let's try 7.9 pH, not degrees. Had to get up too early~

 

[bluespotjawfish]

Oh, and BTW, your couple of hours is up! Scuba vs snow - hum!!! I get snow you get scuba, no fair!

 

[prow]

lol, sorry i was having too much fun we decided to take our slings out, speared my dinner it was kelp bass for him and sand bass for me:dentoid:

ok on to the tank;

1/4/09 at 11pm ph was 8.06(high for the day was 8.08) dosed 50ml of balance, which raised ph to 8.13, i dosed another 10ml with no change in ph. so total is 60ml this dose.

1/5/09 at 11am ph was 7.92 (low over night was 7.91) was gone so no dosing..testing was as follows

ph 7.94 at time of test
Ca+ 400--expected about this
Mg+ 1260--could be just a little less Mg+ media used or just used..
Alk 3.43--this was a little surprise, turned reactor down too why a surprise...

1/5/09 at 10pm ph was 8.03 (high for the day was 8.08) dosed 60ml of balance to raise ph to 8.12(holding for 20min still going)

 

[bluespotjawfish]

Yesterday's high 8.07
This morning's low 7.94
Chamber pH is steady at 6.55

I feel like I am reporting the weather! It's going to be another snowy day, so no diving for me. I'm inland anyway, so the diving ain't much fun unless I dive into my tank!

 

[prow]

Yesterday's high 8.07
This morning's low 7.94
Chamber pH is steady at 6.55

good morning.. not bad, much much better swing. was this without dosing balance?

It's going to be another snowy day, so no diving for me.

lol, anyone up for some ice diving???


ok its early over here, have to go back to work now results this early am;

1/6/09 at 5am ph is 7.93, that is the low for over night, guessing it may go down to 7.91 before the sun starts to shine...test results

ph 7.93-8.12 (this is an ok swing but running about the same as before i started dosing with balance)
Ca+ 410 (from start i lowered my reactors output so this was expected, it was running 4ish now 410ish)
Mg+ 1320 (its all good here)
Alk 3.66 (seems "balance" is effecting alk more than expected, glad i decided to reduce the reactor(alk) or my alk would be in teh mid 4's, precipitate city)

brief conclusion (need to go work real soon); balance is effective for short time use in raising ph some. it does cause a increase in alk(at least in my tank) so for long term use(controlling CO2 issues) i dont think this is the answer. for small occasional uses, it maybe useful, long term kalk drip would be better and cheaper too. for me it resulted in a very slight increase(really the ph is running about the same prior to dosing) in ph, but it took a fairly good amount and a continued dosing which resulted in bigger swings(exceptable swings) and raised alk levels along with it. will highlight some things tonight, got to now....

 

[bluespotjawfish]

It is night yet? Mine was about the same today as yesterday. I'm actually pretty happy about that for the moment. I still haven't tested alk OR recalibrated the probes. Tests are on the list for tomorrow, the probe will probably have to wait until the weekend.

 

[prow]

sorry once again, my job sometimes takes up some serious time. ok time to catchup.

your tank seems to be getting much more stable. those last numbers are what my tanks have been running with a Ca+reactor for years, now you just need to test alk/Ca+ and stuff. then just dose to bring things in balance if needed and twick the reactor some if needed.

for my tank here is the lastest;

1/6/09 at 10pm ph was 8.02(high for the day was 8.08) no dosing

1/7/09 at 4:30am ph was 7.91, this was also the over night low.. dosed 60ml to bring ph to 8.01(stable for 20min++).

IMO, balance has done nothing for my tank, just a temporary raise in ph but my alk went up too even though i reduced the Ca+reactors inputs. Ca+ lowered as i dialed the reactor down but alk still went up. i will test the parameters tomorrow and see if the alk remains the same or goes up. as for my ph its pretty much been the same with or without balance. the only thing balance did was raise ph for a little while, my night dosing would bring up the ph from 8.02ish to 8.12ish but by am the ph was 7.91-7.94ish..with no dosing my ph was running prior to dosing 8.02ish in the pm and would be 7.91-7.94ish in the am. the past two nights after stopping dosing my ph is running the same as prior to. so the only thing balance did here(as far as my ph goes) is raise it up 0.1, which only resulted in bigger ph drops throughout the night. instead of ph going from 8.02ish to 7.94ish it went from 8.12ish, after dosing in the pm, to 7.94ish in the am. currently i have the same ph as before dosing balance, but now my alk and Ca+ levels are heading different directions, which is a bigger issue IMO. i do think with nightly dosing the ph would stay up some(still have bigger swings though) but with nightly dosings, adjustments to alk levels will be needed. i dosed this am but now in mid day with lights on my ph did not go up but down, seems the carbonate produced is not stable. this stuff acts more like a weak buffer. wish i knew what type of carbonate is now making up my alk levels...will check ph tonight and then check in the AM and run my tests, i am willing to keep dosing till alk hits 3.8. but am not counting on it doing anything other than raising my ph for a hour or so and raising my alk no real use, only for emergencies maybe at best...