Zoas and Palys killing fish?

[beachbabies]

I'm not sure if this is the right place to post this, if not, can a mod please redirect me?

I just started my reef tank (30g L w/ algea scrubber), just zoa and paly frags, a clam, and 2 cleaner shrimp. I can't seem to keep fish. I started w/ 4 dominos, to cycle, removed them after a while. added 10 zoa frags, 2 clown gobies, 1 maroon clown, and 2 cleaner shrimp. the clown went first, then the gobies, ane after the other. added 1 tunicate frag, 3 zoa frags and 1 paly frag, noticed that my clams foot is starting to detach from the plug it is mounted to. then added 2 yellow tanks and 2 kole tangs. after a few days, noticed bumps all over the tangs, removed them and later learned that the bumps were bruises.


My husband was reading "Hawaii's Sea Creatures" an invert book by John Hoover and found a paragraph about the zooxanthale (sp?) in the zoas and palys. It was stated that the zooxanthale could be released into the water if the animal was under stress or attack. Could this be the reason my fish are dying?

All the frags are recovering from shipping or being mounted or both. I've done 2 large water changes in the last month, the problem is ongoing.
is there anything that I can do?
Help is appreciated!

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

...then added 2 yellow tangs and 2 kole tangs..

Biggest problem I've seen so far. I would not keep that combination of fish in any tank smaller than 200 gallons.

The zooxanthellae really can't kill fish, from my understanding. I'm assuming you're ensuring the shop owner has had the fish for a few weeks before buying, and quarantining the fish once you get them?

 

[BigAl07]

beachbabes hang on there...

#1 you're WAY pushing the tank time-wise
#2 that tank isn't big enough for ANY single TANG of any size let alone FOUR.

If you think there are some "toxins" you can add some activated carbon which will help but I don't think that's the issue. The big danger of Zoas & Palys is really with HOMO SAPIENS. Their toxin "can" be very potent so they should always be protected from their toxin.



First thing is indeed run the carbon.
Then get rid of the tangs (all of them)
Start testing your water and write down the results. I'm wondering if your tank isn't going through some degree of cycle here.

How much Live Rock?
How much Live Sand?
When was the tank started?

 

[cbrownfish]

Are we being punked?! You had 4 Tangs in a 30 gallon tank???? That is like throwing gasoline on a grease fire. Not to mention the excessive amount of fish you had in the tank.

Your Tangs beat each other to death.

Start reading BEFORE you purchase an animal and research the specimen extensively before you bring a new item home.

 

[beachbabies]

I'm assuming you're ensuring the shop owner has had the fish for a few weeks before buying, and quarantining the fish once you get them?

Yes, I watch the fish come in, put them on hold in QT at the LFS and bring them home 2 wks later if they show no signs of ilness/ parasites

 

[beachbabies]

beachbabes hang on there...

#1 you're WAY pushing the tank time-wise

The tank was cycled w/ live sand from an existing tank, 4 dominos, and is filled w/ filtered ocean water and run this way for 1 month before adding any other livestick. I also use biozyme, not sure if it works, but can't hurt.

#2 that tank isn't big enough for ANY single TANG of any size let alone FOUR.

I've kept the same mix of tangs in my DT with seahorses for 5 months and never had a prob.


If you think there are some "toxins" you can add some activated carbon which will help but I don't think that's the issue. The big danger of Zoas & Palys is really with HOMO SAPIENS. Their toxin "can" be very potent so they should always be protected from their toxin.



First thing is indeed run the carbon.
Then get rid of the tangs (all of them)
done
Start testing your water and write down the results. I'm wondering if your tank isn't going through some degree of cycle here.

How much Live Rock?

5lbs of LR rubble

How much Live Sand?

bare bottom

When was the tank started?

First week in Sept

 

[beachbabies]

Are we being punked?! You had 4 Tangs in a 30 gallon tank???? That is like throwing gasoline on a grease fire. Not to mention the excessive amount of fish you had in the tank.

4 fish in a 30g tank hardly sounds excessive

Your Tangs beat each other to death.

I spend hours a day watching the tank (both from a distance and from up close), the tangs never fought in front of me, nor have they ever been observed fighting @ the LFS during their 2 week QT

Start reading BEFORE you purchase an animal and research the specimen extensively before you bring a new item home.

IME, Book reading will only get you so far, you don't really learn anything until you get hands on experience. Multiple books will tell you multiple things, the only way to know the truth is to do it yourself. I spend 10 or more hrs a week @ my LFS, watching the fish, talking to the people that come in...
It's a good way to get a basic idea of what works and what doesn't.

Example, I have tangs and other fish in my DT w/ 12 seahorses. Now every book that you pick up will tell you that you can't keep fish w/ SH, but there they are, in my livingroom, happy as can be! Yellow tang, Kole tang, fire fish, clown gobie, tailspot blenney, and 2 clowns. Nobody is getting beat up, every fishy gets fed.
Incase you were wondering why, I think the fish provide entertainment for the SH, my horses just love to watch them swim and I think the horses provide the same for the fish.

 

[beachbabies]

I feel like I'm beig ganged up on, so if I come off defensive, I'm sorry, jusdt trying to explain what and why.
I do appreciate all the insight and info!

 

[DaveK]

In reading this thread, I can't help but think of a story attributed to the Greek historian Herodotus, who lived from about 484 BCE to 425 BCE. He had heard a tale from a sailor about a sea monster, because of what was said, he was a bit sceptical, but he didn't want to leave this item out of his books, so he supposedly prefixed it with words to the effect "I don't believe this...".

 

[BigAl07]

I feel like I'm beig ganged up on, so if I come off defensive, I'm sorry, jusdt trying to explain what and why.
I do appreciate all the insight and info!

It's easy for the "Mob Mentality" to kick in HIGH gear especially on this particular topic. Tangs in small tanks are a huge point of passion on this and just about any other forum you visit. I hope we can TRY to be civilized and respectful on both sides of this "debate" and remember we are all like family here and only trying to learn and grow as a community.

You've got to understand that "Watching them at your LFS in those small cramped tanks" and providing a healthy long-term habitat at home are not the same thing. The LFS is only interested in what's called "Turns"... Fish in and quickly fish OUT! They aren't concerned about long-term storage of the fish and they have to keep as many as possible in as little space as possible.

Tangs are lateral swimmers and by nature swim in large areas foraging around. If you'll look around at several sources online ANY tang is suggested at a minimum of 70 - 90 gallons PER fish. That's not just because they can get big but because they physically need the swim room that a 4' or larger tank offers. Anything less is very unhealthy for them short-term and long-term. If you add "personality" and high propensity for stress related illness among tangs and you've got a ticking biological time-bomb there "entertaining" your family and your seahorses.

To further add to the problem the tank is way to young to have even 1/4 of the fish you have. If you give it a "modest" cycle period of 4 weeks (my 90 went MUCH longer and that was a good CYCLE) then we are looking at potentially stocking the tank with one small fish the first week of October. Now if you are "quick" about stocking and your test often and the test results show All Clear you can add another smallish fish the 3rd week of October. Once again diligent testing and IF things show All Clear the 2nd week of Nov you can add another.... and so on....so you see even if you don't factor in your "losses" (which any fish loss sets your whole schedule WAY back) you should have maybe 2-3 smallish fish in the tank right now. That's iffy at best.

I hope this doesn't come off too harsh but you deserve to know the facts regardless of what you feel or have been told by your LFS. Your tank has been rushed and it is way over-stocked and that's just plain and simple facts and not a random "internet" opinion. I dare say if you start today and do a complete water parameter test every day for 2 weeks, record and track the #'s you'll be surprised at your results.

Good luck and I hope you can get the tank turned around and back on the good side again.

 

[chipmunkofdoom2]

In all walks of life, when advice is given at some point people take it offensively.. really you must evaluate our motives. Me, I'm a college student graduating in the spring with my Information Systems degree. I love saltwater aquariums. What motive do I have to ridicule you and give you crappy advice? What would I get out of that? Nothing.

How about Al? Working man and the owner of 2 businesses, do you think he cruises forums looking for opportunities to belittle and make people feel bad? No, he like myself and DaveK, and cbrownfish, just want to give advice, and we also want the best for the poor animals you're putting in the equivalent of a shoebox compared to their natural home.

I'd love it if one could keep tangs in a 30 gallon tank.. I have a 30 gallon tank. If I could keep tangs in there, I would in a heart beat, but the truth is, I can't. If you could successfully keep tangs in a tank that small, we'd say not a word, but the truth is you can't. There's nothing in it for us to tell you that you can't do something with your aquarium that you really can do.. we don't know you and we don't have a personal vendetta against you. What we do know is that tangs in small tanks never work out, along with rushing things along, which also seems to be what you're doing.

Take our advice or don't.. just know that we are certainly not attacking you, we all have a good deal of knowledge and experience under our belts, and there's nothing in it for us to steer you in the wrong direction, so why would we?

 

[Rhodes19]

Hi Beachbabies,

Here are some good links that you may find useful. I know I got a lot of good information from them.

Myth # 15 tank cycling and stocking
Mything the Point, Part Three: Conclusion - Reefkeeping.com

Tangs
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/just-starting-out-sw-beginners/566-so-you-want-tang.html

FAQs
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...rs/33555-look-frequently-asked-questions.html

Reef keeping dangers
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/general-reef-aquarium-discussion/1285-reefkeeping-dangers.html

Reef keeping chemistry for beginners
The “How To” Guide to Reef Aquarium Chemistry for Beginners Part 1: The Salt Water Itself by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

There are a lot more good forums and articles to read but these will get you going. I’m sorry you feel ganged up on. I have experienced that on other web sites and that is why I spend most of my reef surfing time here one RS. The people here really do care and want to help. Even been invited into their homes to see their systems and to get help. Unfortunately, we can’t always detect the nuances in the typed word like we can with the spoken word. Keep asking questions and let us help answer them. That is part of the fun of this hobby. Helping others enjoy the hobby as well. HTH :bouncer:

Chris

 

[cbrownfish]

IME, Book reading will only get you so far, you don't really learn anything until you get hands on experience. Multiple books will tell you multiple things, the only way to know the truth is to do it yourself. I spend 10 or more hrs a week @ my LFS, watching the fish, talking to the people that come in...
It's a good way to get a basic idea of what works and what doesn't.

No book will tell you to put even ONE Tang in a 30 gallon tank. There is a multitude of good reading material both in print and online. Your LFS will sell you 4 Tangs because they make money off the sales. I pity the livestock in said LFS.

Example, I have tangs and other fish in my DT w/ 12 seahorses. Now every book that you pick up will tell you that you can't keep fish w/ SH, but there they are, in my livingroom, happy as can be! Yellow tang, Kole tang, fire fish, clown gobie, tailspot blenney, and 2 clowns. Nobody is getting beat up, every fishy gets fed.
Incase you were wondering why, I think the fish provide entertainment for the SH, my horses just love to watch them swim and I think the horses provide the same for the fish.

This will change, I hope you post a follow up when it does. Can you measure the level of stress in your seahorses now? When they slowly die, you will consider it a "mysterious" event. Adding dominant fish into an established tank with less dominant species will typically reduce immediate agression. Adding the less dominant fish to a tank with dominant species can invoke war immediately. Long term, these mixed species will not work.



PS: I am not attempting to be part of any mass beatdown but you are discounting the experiences of hundreds of reef keepers on this forum and thousands (or tens of thousands) across the US.

 

[cbrownfish]

In all walks of life, when advice is given at some point people take it offensively.. really you must evaluate our motives. Me, I'm a college student graduating in the spring with my Information Systems degree. I love saltwater aquariums. What motive do I have to ridicule you and give you crappy advice? What would I get out of that? Nothing.

How about Al? Working man and the owner of 2 businesses, do you think he cruises forums looking for opportunities to belittle and make people feel bad? No, he like myself and DaveK, and cbrownfish, just want to give advice, and we also want the best for the poor animals you're putting in the equivalent of a shoebox compared to their natural home.

I'd love it if one could keep tangs in a 30 gallon tank.. I have a 30 gallon tank. If I could keep tangs in there, I would in a heart beat, but the truth is, I can't. If you could successfully keep tangs in a tank that small, we'd say not a word, but the truth is you can't. There's nothing in it for us to tell you that you can't do something with your aquarium that you really can do.. we don't know you and we don't have a personal vendetta against you. What we do know is that tangs in small tanks never work out, along with rushing things along, which also seems to be what you're doing.

Take our advice or don't.. just know that we are certainly not attacking you, we all have a good deal of knowledge and experience under our belts, and there's nothing in it for us to steer you in the wrong direction, so why would we?

WELL said!

 

[beachbabies]

First, I never said, that misleading info was, or ever would be comming from this site or any of it's members. If I believed that to be the case, I would've gone elsewhere.
Second, the tangs in have been taken back before this was thread was started.
Third, I've been thinking of taking out the tangs in the DT, I was using them for algea control, but I no longer keep the light on, so i no longer have the algea, they're about silver dollar sized, and I've had them since they were the size of quarters.
The original question was is the zooxanthale in the zoos and palys killing the fish in my tank.
The answer was no. I have added carbon and will continue w/ weekly water tests. I will add 1 fish every 2 weeks for the next few months and see how we do from there. Thank you all for all of you words of wisdom and advice. It has been most helpful!

 

[BigAl07]

Excellent news Jen

Keep us posted

 

[sjsoto]

The original question was is the zooxanthale in the zoos and palys killing the fish in my tank.
The answer was no. I have added carbon and will continue w/ weekly water tests. I will add 1 fish every 2 weeks for the next few months and see how we do from there. Thank you all for all of you words of wisdom and advice. It has been most helpful!

the answer was no to your question, but the members of this forum found what was killing your fish and you seem to refuse their advice, i strongly urge you to research before buying, but then again you seem to have done your research and refuse to accept their advice as well, i dont think its fair to the fish that you are doing this, your fish will just keep on dying if you dont follow the advice giving by members and in books, that advice is there cause they have done their research, once again your corals are not killing your fish, you are... some of us take this hobby serious, ....

 

[jesse92]

Just like to put my 2 cents in....it is true that alot of sources contradict.... but when it comes to animal size they are fairly similar and most tangs grow quite large and from hands on experience it is clear that they are very active. so just saying that hands on experience should not result in experimental animal cruelty. When keeping an animal it habitat should be replicated as much as possible and for tangs a lot of swimming room is the number one prerequisite. I have learn this from checking these guys out in the wild for myself cause i myself cant bring myself to believe everything the books say