WHY does NSW have poor buffing capacity???

[JT101]

I have heard this time and time again...

That aside from the numerous risks of using natural seawater in a reef tank, yet another risk is the inherent low buffering capacity of it.

My question is WHY is it inherently low?

What is added to sea salt mixes that gives it a HIGH buffering capacity?

Thanks
John

 

[Dentoid]

This is a good question for Boomer. I see he is still logged in, perhaps he will chime in.

For future reference. Chemistry questions, like this one, are best put in the chemistry forum. That way you are sure to get Boomer's attention. Or you could shoot him a PM asking him to look at this thread.

 

[mps9506]

I have heard this time and time again...

That aside from the numerous risks of using natural seawater in a reef tank, yet another risk is the inherent low buffering capacity of it.

My question is WHY is it inherently low?

What is added to sea salt mixes that gives it a HIGH buffering capacity?

Thanks
John

I've had no problems using NSW 3 or 4 years. My alk and Calcium was always ideal, not as high as most people seem to keep it.
So not sure where this info is coming from?

 

[prow]

NSW is not low its perfect. but in our tanks, esp if sps and clams dominate, alk gets used up and NSW alk levels will fall to below natrual levels quick. gas exchange and every other compensating mech is lacking in our tanks. thats the only thing i can think of that would lead one to believe NSW is inherenty low on buffering.

 

[JT101]

I've had no problems using NSW 3 or 4 years. My alk and Calcium was always ideal, not as high as most people seem to keep it.
So not sure where this info is coming from?

I've read many times that NSW has "poor buffering capacity" with no backup. I have read this many times. No one ever seems to offer any data to substantiate this "fact".

The only thing I can imagine is that artificial seawater mixes are deliberately "spiked" with a lot of minerals, calcium etc. so that these materials last longer between partial water changes. IF that is the case, then I would have to ALSO imagine that NSW is much closer to what marine life has evolved to tolerate than even the best artificial seawater mixes...

 

[JT101]

NSW is not low its perfect. but in our tanks, esp if sps and clams dominate, alk gets used up and NSW alk levels will fall to below natrual levels quick. gas exchange and every other compensating mech is lacking in our tanks. thats the only thing i can think of that would lead one to believe NSW is inherenty low on buffering.

Ok, maybe so, but then what makes ARTIFICIAL seawater HIGHER in buffering capacity? That is the part of the equation that I don't understand...

 

[Witfull]

because the ocean sucks now! run off, global warming, internal toxic gases,,,,


the reefs KNOW we are ther salvation.....they are leading our hobby like cheney leads GW,,,,







ok, serious answer to follow....after the truth gets diluted~

 

[JT101]

Why does NSW have POOR buffering capacity?

I have heard this time and time again...

That aside from the numerous risks of using natural seawater in a reef tank, yet another risk is the inherent low buffering capacity of it.

My question is WHY is it inherently low? Again, I have seen this claim with no backup data.

What is added to sea salt mixes that gives it a HIGH buffering capacity? Is it deliberately "spiked" to overcompensate for what gets used up?

Thanks
John

 

[prow]

lol, too much.

I've read many times that NSW has "poor buffering capacity" with no backup. I have read this many times. No one ever seems to offer any data to substantiate this "fact".

no data because it is not a fact, its a misconception if anything. the ocean keeps its alk level through many compensating mech. NSW alk is very stable and remains right at 2.5. take just sea water and the alk will be 2.5, perfect. put it in our tanks its all good, but our tanks do not have all those compensating mechs(no back ups) at least not in the same capacity as the ocean. thus, our tanks can not maintain a consistant level with out "spiking" it. yes most all salts do "spike" the alk. if you mix a batch of salt and the alk level is 2.5 most all of us reefers will say wow thats low, but really its just right and only low for our tanks because of the lack of those mech to keep levels right. gas exchange alone contributes to big losses in alk in our tanks, due do inadequate respirations, CO2 is trapped and effects the ph which the alk then gets used to compensate for the lack of gas exhange inorder to keep the ph stable. the ocean surface is massive and dose not lack in gas exchange. that is only one example there are many many.


ok its the ph that is actually controlled and the alk is a compensating mech which helps keep the ph stable. i had to explain it in terms as alk is what is controlled and other stuff like CO2 is use to compensate, but its not that both CO2 and alk are compensating mech that helps keep the ph where is should be. but explaining it in correct terms would take awhile due to the vast compensating mech our oceans have. i hope i explained so you understand and not confussed you more

 

[JT101]

Re: Why does NSW have POOR buffering capacity?

No one ???

 

[JT101]

lol, too much.

no data because it is not a fact, its a misconception if anything. the ocean keeps its alk level through many compensating mech. NSW alk is very stable and remains right at 2.5. take just sea water and the alk will be 2.5, perfect. put it in our tanks its all good, but our tanks do not have all those compensating mechs(no back ups) at least not in the same capacity as the ocean. thus, our tanks can not maintain a consistant level with out "spiking" it. yes most all salts do "spike" the alk. if you mix a batch of salt and the alk level is 2.5 most all of us reefers will say wow thats low, but really its just right and only low for our tanks because of the lack of those mech to keep levels right. gas exchange alone contributes to big losses in alk in our tanks, due do inadequate respirations, CO2 is trapped and effects the ph which the alk then gets used to compensate for the lack of gas exhange inorder to keep the ph stable. the ocean surface is massive and dose not lack in gas exchange. that is only one example there are many many.


ok its the ph that is actually controlled and the alk is a compensating mech which helps keep the ph stable. i had to explain it in terms as alk is what is controlled and other stuff like CO2 is use to compensate, but its not that both CO2 and alk are compensating mech that helps keep the ph where is should be. but explaining it in correct terms would take awhile due to the vast compensating mech our oceans have. i hope i explained so you understand and not confussed you more

Thanks, I guess all I really needed to know was why so many people do NOTY use NWS PURELY because of the misconception that it has poor buffering capacity. Yes, I know there are a WHOLE HOST of OTHER possible reasons for not using it (i.e., runoff, pesticides, pollution, unwanted organisms etc.) which I am temporarily discounting for the sake of this argument.

You answered the question the way I was expecting - you said that artificial sea water (ASW for short) is actually "spiked". To me, this seems unnatural. I would MUCH rather use NSW that much more closely matches the actual marine environment and do frequent and large water changes (which I am doing anyway!) than use ASW that has been altered to "boost" alkalinity just so it provides a little longer buffer period.

So many people talk about the bad things about NSW but seem to turn a blind eye to the "unnatural" composition of ASW.

It is all very confusing.

For now I am just going to continue on with my 75% weekly NSW changes, AFTER, of course, I check the phosphates. I understand that elevated levels of that material can halt coral growth.

 

[BigAl07]

Re: Why does NSW have POOR buffering capacity?

JT why have you started a NEW thread? Go back over here.. others have left you some GOOD information at


http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...-why-does-nsw-have-poor-buffing-capacity.html

 

[Boomer]

Atah boy Prow NSW runs between 2.15 -2.50 depending. Its avg std is ~ ~2.25.

 

[mps9506]

Thanks, I guess all I really needed to know was why so many people do NOTY use NWS PURELY because of the misconception that it has poor buffering capacity.

I don't think this is the reason most people do not use NSW. It is more along the lines of people don't have access to quality NSW. Anything near a rivermouth, estuary etc. may have variable SG, not to mention what types of runoff maybe in it if is near a city or roads.
Even where I lived in SE North Carolina there had been over 12 sewage spills in the last 2 years leading to high fecal coliform counts in water tested on the sound side of the barrier islands. Then even on incoming and outgoing tides the salinity can change quite drastically in the inlets.
I don't think there is anything to discourage the use of NSW if you have a quality source that you have easy access to. I used it because it was easier and cheaper for me to do weekly water changes with water that the university pumped in for the mariculture facilities. No need for me to go out in a boat to collect it

 

[JT101]

Re: Why does NSW have POOR buffering capacity?

JT why have you started a NEW thread? Go back over here.. others have left you some GOOD information at


http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...-why-does-nsw-have-poor-buffing-capacity.html

Hi Allen,

Sorry, I was hoping Boomer would chime on this one (I keep hearing that he's the grand poobah of reef chemistry) but I just noticed that he did reply on that other thread.

I have concluded that the only reason that NSW has "poor" buffering capacity is because sea salt mixes have ARTIFICIALLY BOOSTED alkalinity to compensate for the usage of alk by reef inhabitants. To me, that is "cheating" and is introducing a chemistry variable that is alien to animals that have evolved over millions of years to live in real sea water. That is why I decided that I'm going to keep doing the NSW changes but FIRST I am going to check my local phosphates, I have never checked them before and I don't know if they are high or not (other parameters are perfect - salinity, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates).

Thanks
John

 

[mps9506]

Re: Why does NSW have POOR buffering capacity?

Well regardless you have to cheat to make up for the alk and calcium used up by reef inhabitants anyways....

 

[BigAl07]

Mike is right. Regardless of how the water is placed into the tank it has to be "boosted" one way or another because it's a CLOSED loop system.

I can see where you're coming from with the "Artificial" stuff but it's in there for the tank and inhabitants benefit. Trust me when I tell you these companies are spending $$$ (big money ) to create the blends that are the most balanced and beneficial to our tanks.

 

[prow]

Atah boy Prow NSW runs between 2.15 -2.50 depending. Its avg std is ~ ~2.25.

hey boomer how the heck are ya. always with the little stuff:smack:.......

I have concluded that the only reason that NSW has "poor" buffering capacity is because sea salt mixes have ARTIFICIALLY BOOSTED alkalinity to compensate for the usage of alk by reef inhabitants. To me, that is "cheating" and is introducing a chemistry variable that is alien to animals that have evolved over millions of years to live in real sea water. That is why I decided that I'm going to keep doing the NSW changes but FIRST I am going to check my local phosphates, I have never checked them before and I don't know if they are high or not (other parameters are perfect - salinity, ammonia, nitrites, nitrates)

its not cheating, its not NSW poor buffering. its our tanks capacity or lack of. aside from surface gas exchange, another way the oceans control ph is by breaking down carbonate stuff, like rock, coral skeletons. which release Ca and alk amoung other things or algae growth to help uptake CO2-all these and more help regulate ph.

need some help, here, anyone know the correct terminology for our oceans metabolic and respiratory mechanics, not sure if metabolic is the correct term here. i just look at like the ocean is just a body like mine. i know its not the same.


any how i use salk mixes and add stuff like a Ca+reactor. i dont want my rock or clam shells breaking down or algae taking over. in some tanks there is not much of a demand and alk doesnt get used up like in other tanks. in those tanks weekly, even monthly water changes with NSW and nothing else might be fine. but not all tank have such low demands. on one of my tanks after my Ca+reactor was off, in just one day the alk went from 3.6 to 2.7. i would have to do 100% water changes with NSW daily to keep up with my tank demands and still levels would might be lower than natural level some of the time, coral growth could be inhibited, my rock breaking down getting smaller and smaller. i am not jsut talking about Ca+ either. na, i will use a good salt mix with a higher than natural alk levels so my levels stay and/or above natural levels. if i use NSW my levels will be at and/or below natural levels. if thats cheating so be it, whatever it takes to keep my corals happy