Who is responsible; the individual or the LFS?
- Thread starter Cougra
- Start date
Cougra
Well-Known Member
I personally believe that the onus is on the hobbyist to know something about the live animals they are planning on purchasing. I honestly don't like hearing people who go to the store to get a small tank for their kids to enjoy when they don't know anything about the hobby themselves.
I believe there is a lot of missinformation around and a general perception that keeping an aquarium is easy. (ie. Just add water, heater and filter and everything will be fine.) Then when they try to keep fish, they find out that after a few weeks everything seems to have died and they get mad and blame the store for selling sick fish, or give up on the hobby since it's a "waste of money."
I think that main thing is that people on the whole need to be better educated. I know there are a lot of people out there who don't know what a nitrogen cycle is or how it affects their tank. What I would like to see put in place is some sort of system (kinda like a certification) so that people have to prove they have a basic knowledge of fish keeping. In other words they need to read a book or go online and do some basic research before being allowed to buy a tank or any live stock.
I believe there is a lot of missinformation around and a general perception that keeping an aquarium is easy. (ie. Just add water, heater and filter and everything will be fine.) Then when they try to keep fish, they find out that after a few weeks everything seems to have died and they get mad and blame the store for selling sick fish, or give up on the hobby since it's a "waste of money."
I think that main thing is that people on the whole need to be better educated. I know there are a lot of people out there who don't know what a nitrogen cycle is or how it affects their tank. What I would like to see put in place is some sort of system (kinda like a certification) so that people have to prove they have a basic knowledge of fish keeping. In other words they need to read a book or go online and do some basic research before being allowed to buy a tank or any live stock.
Charlie97L
Well-Known Member
While I agree with what you say about the certification, that will never happen, and I believe there was a thread on nano-reef.com about this very subject.
the crux of the 50 page thread was who decides what = certified? i think this is going to have to be a self-policing issue basically. and unfortunately, if restrictions were placed, a grey market would pop up to serve it.
i mean, in a country where you can easily get prescription medications online without a prescription, who is going to be able to regulate fish? Most people would agree, that while a dog may not have as low tolerances to change as our reefs do, it's as much of a committment as a SW aquarium. do you have to be licensed to have a dog? no.
then we get into conservation issues. i think all of marine aquaria will soon be moving to aquaculture, as the technology improves, and more restrictions are placed on wild caught creatures. But even then, there will still be poaching. I think it is up to us as aquarists to educate our friends on the proper treatment and complexity of these animals. i know my roommates have developed an appreciation for the complexity and work involved in keeping my tank working right.
On a side note, I think nano cubes are the bane of the industry. i see so many people stuffing tangs and angels into a 12 or 24 gallon tank it drives me nuts. Proper nano tanks are great, but the fact that you can get an all in one box solution to SW (seemingly, anyway) is a little misleading to a lot of people, especially the younger guys out there.
The only real action i think the LFS could and should take is not sell a fish to people who don't have the capacity for it, ie. if you have a 10 gallon, no triggers or tangs... because that's tantamount to selling a dog to someone who intends to have it for dinner. They could at least easily make an effort to inquire, or about hard to keep fish, like mandarins, as well.
the crux of the 50 page thread was who decides what = certified? i think this is going to have to be a self-policing issue basically. and unfortunately, if restrictions were placed, a grey market would pop up to serve it.
i mean, in a country where you can easily get prescription medications online without a prescription, who is going to be able to regulate fish? Most people would agree, that while a dog may not have as low tolerances to change as our reefs do, it's as much of a committment as a SW aquarium. do you have to be licensed to have a dog? no.
then we get into conservation issues. i think all of marine aquaria will soon be moving to aquaculture, as the technology improves, and more restrictions are placed on wild caught creatures. But even then, there will still be poaching. I think it is up to us as aquarists to educate our friends on the proper treatment and complexity of these animals. i know my roommates have developed an appreciation for the complexity and work involved in keeping my tank working right.
On a side note, I think nano cubes are the bane of the industry. i see so many people stuffing tangs and angels into a 12 or 24 gallon tank it drives me nuts. Proper nano tanks are great, but the fact that you can get an all in one box solution to SW (seemingly, anyway) is a little misleading to a lot of people, especially the younger guys out there.
The only real action i think the LFS could and should take is not sell a fish to people who don't have the capacity for it, ie. if you have a 10 gallon, no triggers or tangs... because that's tantamount to selling a dog to someone who intends to have it for dinner. They could at least easily make an effort to inquire, or about hard to keep fish, like mandarins, as well.
Little Luey
Active Member
One thing I do like about Petco and Petsmart is the fact that they provide some basic info on their fish, like the red & green dots by the fish name telling you this is a community or agressive fish; a Petco I used to go had printed papers on how to setup a tank and some fish requirements, but like Charlie97L said, people will still put a tang on a small tank!
What I like to see is newbies get responsible and try to learn, so many come in to the hobby thinking they know what they are doing when the reality is they do not; this is why that tang is on that 20gal.
I know you have seen that member with that fish in his avatar, and some other ones that continually get told not to do a certain thing and they still do get this Mandarin or anemone on their 2 month old tank.
When I do not know what I am doing I listen to advice, then I try to make an educated desicion, but not everyone does and this is why some people will "blame" the LFS when things don't go right, it is easier to do so than to admit they were wrong.
The way we can help change this is by educating every newbie that comes to RS and help them out, but even then we can only do so much, they need to want to be helped, if not is a loosing battle.
A while back I desided I was going to be more friendly with new reefers so once in a while I do go to the Meet & Greet forum to say hello and try to be more proactive with the new people. Hopefully more and more correct info gets out there.
Peace.
What I like to see is newbies get responsible and try to learn, so many come in to the hobby thinking they know what they are doing when the reality is they do not; this is why that tang is on that 20gal.
I know you have seen that member with that fish in his avatar, and some other ones that continually get told not to do a certain thing and they still do get this Mandarin or anemone on their 2 month old tank.
When I do not know what I am doing I listen to advice, then I try to make an educated desicion, but not everyone does and this is why some people will "blame" the LFS when things don't go right, it is easier to do so than to admit they were wrong.
The way we can help change this is by educating every newbie that comes to RS and help them out, but even then we can only do so much, they need to want to be helped, if not is a loosing battle.
A while back I desided I was going to be more friendly with new reefers so once in a while I do go to the Meet & Greet forum to say hello and try to be more proactive with the new people. Hopefully more and more correct info gets out there.
Peace.
Sharkbait
Active Member
"The largest killer of all capitve marine animals is ignorance of the caretaker" Anthony Calfo, BOCP.
With that said I would charge the person interested in keeping the animal. Advice is free and is not always correct, so take it with a grain of salt and do the research. You'll ususally feel much better that you did. I am a hobbist, and I run a saltwater service company. I have heard it all. I agree with Witfull's comments, being I've played in both sides. Responsibility is doing what is right for said organism, everyone should take part down the chain. Blaming a LFS is passing the buck for not doing your homework. Expecting a lot from a employee, the Ocean is a big place, a lot of information. Can you remember every detail of the largest percentage of our planet?( if you think you can i have some good questions for you, just an offer.)
With that said I would charge the person interested in keeping the animal. Advice is free and is not always correct, so take it with a grain of salt and do the research. You'll ususally feel much better that you did. I am a hobbist, and I run a saltwater service company. I have heard it all. I agree with Witfull's comments, being I've played in both sides. Responsibility is doing what is right for said organism, everyone should take part down the chain. Blaming a LFS is passing the buck for not doing your homework. Expecting a lot from a employee, the Ocean is a big place, a lot of information. Can you remember every detail of the largest percentage of our planet?( if you think you can i have some good questions for you, just an offer.)
BoomerD
Well-Known Member
Having been in the hobby in one way or another for over 30 yrs., I have perhaps a bit different view on this. It is ultimately the hobbyist's responsibility to ensure that the animals they buy for their tanks are healthy and suitable for their particular tank environment and community, HOWEVER, it is also the responsibility of the LFS and it's employees to give accurate information when asked. NO, they should not be expected to know each person's tank/set-up by memory, nor should they have to ask, before selling a fish/coral, but IF ASKED, they should know to ask the pertinant questions, and have the CORRECT answers to questions.
Having worked for a long time as a "saltwater specialist" in one of the LFS here, I've seen lots of employees in the fish room that personally, I wouldn't trust to clean a cat-box, but on the other hand, I've also seen WAY TOO ANY hobbyists who should never even be allowed to have an aquarium screen-saer, let alone a real tank, housing live fish and corals...I've dealt with people who only see fish & aquariums as a decoration for thier home/ business, and don't care much if the animals die, because after all, they can always buy another one...
Nope, IMO, it's incumbent upon US hobbyists to become as knowledgeable as possible about our hobby, to research every fish/invert/coral that we buy, BEFORE we buy it, and to quarantine our new livestock before we add it into our communities...
It's our job to know what questions to ask the LFS employees, yet to be knowledgeable enough to tell when they either don't know, and are trying to B.S. us, or outright lie to us...whether to sell SOMETHING, or to sell what's their weekly special.
IF you find a good LFS, that hires knowledgeable people, rather than just the local HS kids because they're cheaper, then by all means, give that store your business. DON'T b*tch if they're a bit more spendy than the local LFS that always has sick fish, and people who couldn't tell a blue tang, from a blue goby, but instead rely on the labels on the tank to figure it out...
buy good books, and read, read, read...make YOURSELF the "saltwater specialist" when visiting your LFS...
Witfull
Well-Known Member
very articulate group~
now wholesalers,,,hmm this is a rough trade to be in. they are at the mercy of suppliers for quality and selection. they are at the mercy of airlines.(bumped flights, boxes left sitting in the sun for hours, failure to call on arrival) they have overheads and losses, they need to recoup and profit. most are very good at this, if not they soon go out of business.
as expensive as this hobby is, i would gladly pay more if the cost would give a greater shipping survival rate of animals. this is the weakest link in this hobby, fresh or salt. transportation! we need to to get them beyond the sticker "Live Animals". many employees there just dont care. its a box. they need to have a penalty for failure to follow schedule. as of now, most only refund the cost of shipping...big whooptydoo. hit them with a fine of retail value of the shipment. this would hit them hard and i would wager, expitited, preferential treatment of "Live Animals".
these have always been around, Nano is just the latest name for them. for decades they were the "starter set." every store had them, the cheapest, most basic set up to get the marginal customer interested in fish. sticker shock is an understatement in this hobby. many people that are curious about the hobby, dont want to drop the cash if they arent quite sure if its for them. these folks, when i had my stores, i would steer towards freshies. i would literally talk for an hour to a new customer about SW, almost appearing to try and talk them out of it. seemed anti-retail, but either they went to freshwater fish (i still made sales and had a happier customer), a well informed SW customer that knew what they were getting into, or i lost a customer. (maybe a good thing). after my little disertation, and they wanted saltwater fish, they could only buy one thing on their initial trip. a good book. yes some wanted to buy right then and there, but it was a book only. after time went by, we had a strong following and grew by word of mouth. i actually had to have new to SW orientations. tuesday nights at 630, i still remember it well.
now wholesalers,,,hmm this is a rough trade to be in. they are at the mercy of suppliers for quality and selection. they are at the mercy of airlines.(bumped flights, boxes left sitting in the sun for hours, failure to call on arrival) they have overheads and losses, they need to recoup and profit. most are very good at this, if not they soon go out of business.
as expensive as this hobby is, i would gladly pay more if the cost would give a greater shipping survival rate of animals. this is the weakest link in this hobby, fresh or salt. transportation! we need to to get them beyond the sticker "Live Animals". many employees there just dont care. its a box. they need to have a penalty for failure to follow schedule. as of now, most only refund the cost of shipping...big whooptydoo. hit them with a fine of retail value of the shipment. this would hit them hard and i would wager, expitited, preferential treatment of "Live Animals".
mps9506
Well-Known Member
Witfull said:
Yar. I totally agree here. My local airport depot doesn't give a flip about my shipments. I KNOW the shipment arrives at 12:30 in the afternoon. But if they are on lunch, to bad, those boxes are sitting on the tarmac until they are ready to pick up. If my stuff is dead, they write me a check, not a big deal to them. It is a big deal to me though.
To tell the truth as bad as I've expereinced getting sutff shipped via ups or fed ex, I almost think they would take better care of my livestock shipments than the airlines. I get my ORA fish and corals via FedEx overnight and I have never had a problem getting my ora shipments in good conditions, excpt for one december when we kept getting frozen clownfish... Nother story though...
jumpincactus
New Member
We are all responsible IMO. Knowledge is power. In respects to me I took a year to read everything I could on reefkeeping. I spent that year planning saving, asking other more experinced hobbyists what worked for them.
I do believe that there are some really good LFS out there but as with anything in life in the sales market. Buyer beware. If you set yourself up for others to take advantage of you then it is something you need to live with and not blame the LFS
Doing my homework upfront saved me the misery I went thru 15 years ago when I 1st got into reefs and had a horrible time of it and ultimately quit the hobby because I did not know,nor enjoy what it was like. This time around armed with facts and knowledge I am enjoying this hobby much more.
This is where I feel the LFS would thrive with training thier employees. With the buyer having knowledge and the store staff having knowledge then what you have are more happy hobbyist staying in the hobby and spending money in the LFS store of thier choice. And now let me ask you this, are you going to spend your hard earned dollars with a LFS that never seems to have the right information or are you going to spend it with someone as passionate about the hobby and those that really do have the answers for your problems or questions when you need help.
I do believe that there are some really good LFS out there but as with anything in life in the sales market. Buyer beware. If you set yourself up for others to take advantage of you then it is something you need to live with and not blame the LFS
Doing my homework upfront saved me the misery I went thru 15 years ago when I 1st got into reefs and had a horrible time of it and ultimately quit the hobby because I did not know,nor enjoy what it was like. This time around armed with facts and knowledge I am enjoying this hobby much more.
This is where I feel the LFS would thrive with training thier employees. With the buyer having knowledge and the store staff having knowledge then what you have are more happy hobbyist staying in the hobby and spending money in the LFS store of thier choice. And now let me ask you this, are you going to spend your hard earned dollars with a LFS that never seems to have the right information or are you going to spend it with someone as passionate about the hobby and those that really do have the answers for your problems or questions when you need help.
jkhalliday76
Member
I think both should share the blame. The LFS should be well-informed about their business (though mostly high school kids work these jobs), and should give suggestions based on their expertise, not solely on making the profit.
The buyer should beware. Don't go blindly into a LFS and purchase something and then get mad when it doesn't work out. This is too new of a hobby for everyone to know everything about it.
The buyer should beware. Don't go blindly into a LFS and purchase something and then get mad when it doesn't work out. This is too new of a hobby for everyone to know everything about it.
deaclauderdale
Well-Known Member
Frankly I believe that it is the buyer beware issue. Modern day society has the most economically sensative, and insanely spoiled people in it (myself included). We can do so much research on a topic that we belive will adversely effect us directly but don't spend the same effort on indirect items. With the advent of the internet I believe that it is our responsibilty to know what we are getting into, but on the same note it is the LFS owners and his employees responsibility to tell the truth on a question asked not to be soley motivated by the sell but to consider the buyer and they're desire to be sucsessful no matter how much of a novice they might be. To close when I go to my LFS I've already done the research on sites like this and in books and I am able to weed through the lines (and lies) he tells me and make an educated decision.
meandean45
Active Member
Hello All!
Let's all step up and take the responsibility that we should. THE RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH THE BUYER! Do the research, avoid impulse buys, and leave ANYTHING, no matter how bad you want it, at the LFS if it doesn't look PERFECT. IF we all will do these three things, we should have no trouble, and no Blame/Responsibility should need to be placed on anyone but ourselves.
Dean
Let's all step up and take the responsibility that we should. THE RESPONSIBILITY LIES WITH THE BUYER! Do the research, avoid impulse buys, and leave ANYTHING, no matter how bad you want it, at the LFS if it doesn't look PERFECT. IF we all will do these three things, we should have no trouble, and no Blame/Responsibility should need to be placed on anyone but ourselves.
Dean