Who is responsible; the individual or the LFS?

[Cougra]

First of all, this thread is NOT here to flame any LFS or LFS employees. I am not a LFS owner and have never worked in a LFS. This thread is made to make people stop and consider what they think about the local LFS.

When browsing the any aquarium forms it doesn't take long to find a thread or two complaining about how poor their LFS is and what horrible advice someone received from the LFS. So the question is:

How much responsibility should we place on the LFS to provide all the information required for this hobby? Why does the LFS get the blame for poor advice instead of the individual for not doing enough research on the animals they want to put in their tank?

Do we expect too much from these businesses? What other business would you go into to spend thousands of dollars and only rely on the employees to give you all the information you need to know about that item?

 

[blue_eyes53813]

hmmm. My first thought is.. WHo hires the employees that dont know what they are talking about or cant give good advice when working at the store? I would say the LFS owner.. Its there responsibility to hire well educated employees. If they work there we should beable to trust them. So if the experience is bad it bounces back and hurts the business.

 

[Witfull]

this is a fine line, ive been on both sides, actually all 3,,,lol

retailer, wholesaler, and hobbyist. in years gone by, LFS had good employees, back in the "Mom & Pop" stores. but now days, with profit margins and costs, its a real struggle for stores to stay economically viable.

there is a LOT of work to be done in a LFS. and you need people to do it. but also with the margins as they are today, its truely hard to pay experienced people what they are worth. so an owner is put in a position of hiring people at say 6-7 dollars an hour. along with this basic crew, you have your management, they people know more and get paid more. but they have alot more to do than assist every customer. so, on the floor you have basic knowedge sales people. answering what they can. sometime even when they shouldnt.

now flip side. some customers come in, look around, see something they like, say "ill take it" and never ask a question. is it the LFS responsibilty to instruct the buyer?

another customer type. they come in and ask all kinds of questions, talk to the kid, then the manager, and dont listen to them. they seem to hear words but not what is really being said and appear to be able to do the exact opposite of whats been said, then blame the LFS.

another type. they come in, ask, listen, read. they understand whats involved and even teach you a few things. and you wish you could hire them, but know you cant afford them.

these customer types apply to every form of retail. guy walks in to get a TV,,,sees one and says ill take it. sold

guy walks in and buys a tv, asks about picture and color and sound etc. salesman explains, if you have cable tv the picture is awesome, for the best sound youll need a surround sytem. guy walks out with just the TV, comes back a day later and complains about the lousy picture cause its hooked up to an arial antenna, the sound is meerely ok, and the stupid salesman didnt tell him anything.

so, what we need here is a meeting in the middle. but how do we achieve it?

Stores, expect your employees to know what they are selling. test them. make it comensurate with job retention. teach them selling techniques. how to elicit information from a customer. give employee bonus' for learning and making good sales.

customers. know what your buying. before you buy it. if you buy a chevette and expect it to be a corvette just because its a chevy, im sorry to say but thats on you, and cannot complain. if the sales man says "they are practically the same" and you buy it, once again,,,on you.

so what im saying is,,,the responsiblility is on ALL of us.

 

[kromebusa]

I would relate it to buying a vehicle, You do your own research on the vehicle, but there are some things that only the dealer is going to know because that is his profession. He has the insight of the differences between the models and what will better suit your taste/style. I know most of the LFS like petsbarn and the larger ones won't have a lot of experienced people, as most are kids in school. But the saltwater specific ones should have knowledgeable people working there. The one I go to, there is one main guy that owns the store, Whenever I walk in he has his nose in a book or the boards. He has another guy that helps fill in while he is vacationing and he is the same way, It is a matter of personal pride i think.

 

[Annie742]

A person should at least have some idea about what they are getting when they walk into the place.
A lot of places have at least one good person that knows their stuff. The rest seem to know some. Then again some of the kids they hire are either working there cause they need the job or they are learning the hobby. So they are learning right along with the customer.

When I go to the lfs I may ask a few questions, the first ones that I ask I know the answers to. If that person answers the wrong way I just go talk to the next sales person If there is another sales person there.

These places are in it for the business like any other place, they want to make money. But if a customer has done some research they should at least have some ideas of what they are doing, and not rely soley on the sales person. There are a lot of resorces to read and ask about the hobby. Books and places like this on the internet where you can get help from people who are not looking to get money from ya

If a customer sees somthing they really want and they are not sure how to take care of it, they need to read up on it BEFORE they get it.

I have been at pet stores and the guy that knows saltwater will tell them "No your tank is way to small for this fish" the people get mad.



So I guess I'm say yes we do expect to much from the lfs.

 

[KimPossible]

From a business perspective I think you should grow your business to be profitable. Profitable does not mean gouging the life out of the customer.

When a business is built on a nitch, would? it be beneficial for the business owner to spend money in growing his business and clientele? In saltwater I think this is accomplished through education; knowing the in's and out's of the care involved for the fish, environment and set ups.

This benefits the hobbyist and in the end of course the shop, with return clientele and word of mouth. If the result of poor management and lack of involvement is crappy service and uneducated advice, then, it will get around and ultimately the business owner will feel the pinch in the pocket.

It makes sense to me to feel the pinch providing my business with knowledge and experience hoping that it will be enough for continued growth and the pride of servicing our community with value and dignity.

From a consumer point, my point, it is my responsibility to make an educated decision on the things that I purchase. Knowing what I want and whether I should spend my money here...or there. IMHO, I also have a responsibility to take care of the things I have. Knowledge is our sword.

Yesterday, I went into a local camera shop (I try to give business to local shop owners rather than big business) to buy a new MiniDVD Camcorder. Unfortunately I had just enough information about the gadgets to be dangerous....the kid behind the counter had about the same level of knowledge that I did!?!?! Respectfully, I walked out with my 1K for the camera and possibly more...I would have purchased accessories :rollingey

 

[mps9506]

When it comes to hiring employees it is very difficult to find employees that come with the knowledge nec. to handle every situation. Fact is most people willing to work for 6-7 bucks an hour are either in high school or college. Also keep inmind these kids can't afford to have full blown reef systems, they learn on the job so you can't always rely on them for the best info, that's the nature of the trade. You just can't expect them to be experts.
More importantly the manager or owner should have the knowledge to pass on to his/her employees and give them the resources to learn as much as possible. I find most of my employees are like sponges when it comes to aquatics. They learn everything they can and try to stay up to date on everything, because they love it. But do all of them have the experience to handle questions like, how should I setup a calcium reactor? Unfortunately they don't.
I just advice them to be honest with customers, if there is a question they can't answer, they don't BS the customer, they go over to one of the computers in the shop and look it up.

 

[cheeks69]

I think the responsibility is on everyone !

When I started out in the hobby I really had no ideia what was involved in having and maintaining a healthy thriving reef in my home, how much time, money and energy was going to be necessary. Like me, most beginners don't know what's involved, just look at the daily threads throughout the reefing forums !

Unfortunately there are some LFS' that take advantage of the uninformed. They continually sell livestock that will have little to no chance of surviving in captivity and do you know who buys it ??? The uninformed beginner.

There was an article recently that this hobby is having much more of an impact on natural coral reefs then was once thought and eventually if things don't change very soon there will be tight government regulation which I don't think anyone wants.

 

[JasonL]

I think it really all comes back to the LFS you do buisness with. I stay in the South Carolina capital so i have an abundance of stores to choose from. It is, the LFS stores that only deal in salt water that you need to stick to. Not these pet stores that sell birds, lizards and dogs. They will hire any kid trying to put himself through college. Of course you need to do some research thats a given...I mean... I dont want to look like an idiot when I go and buy my new Brittle-fish:dummy: Just a joke With that being said. The ultimate resposibility is in the buyers hand. Do some research.

 

[cracker]

Say You see a beginner about to make an unwise purchase. Ya think it's ok the politely mention that this fish doesn't look so hot or that coral needs intense lighting and usually difficult to keep? Or even suggest this person check out an online forum for more info? I do and feel it's my duty to at least try and share what little knowledge I have.

 

[Woodstock]

Caveat Emptor~ I think we, the purchasers, are responsible for our actions. We should research livestock prior to purchase and not rely on one person's opinion. Forums like this one are priceless when acquiring knowledge, as are books and other experienced reefers, etc. These should be utilized~

If you have a knowledgeable LFS with honest/experienced employees (or atleast one person there with knowledge), GREAT!... if not, either find another LFS or shop there only if you're equipped with the necessary knowledge to make a sound decision.

 

[cheeks69]

IME things have change alot from when I first started in the hobby, information is much more readily available so beginners have some great resources to use for research, especially the internet.

What I would like to see is an improvement in wholesale and retail facilities and have some standards set for them. The vast majority of ornamental fish caught will die even before they reach the LFS' either because of poor conditions or shipping stress and when they arrive at the LFS' many will sell the fish immediately with no Q period to make sure they're eating and have recovered from the transport.

I'm very fortunate to have an excellent LFS close to where I live. They will sell no fish unless they've been in Q for a minimum of a week and are eating well.

 

[mps9506]

What I would like to see is an improvement in wholesale and retail facilities and have some standards set for them. The vast majority of ornamental fish caught will die even before they reach the LFS' either because of poor conditions or shipping stress and when they arrive at the LFS' many will sell the fish immediately with no Q period to make sure they're eating and have recovered from the transport.

I wish that would happen as well. Unfortunately so much money is spent in the country on marine fish as is, I don't see that happening.
A few things I have noticed while shopping various whoelsalers and transhippers of the years. One I can choose a high quality wholesaler or cherry picker and receive more expensive high quality stuff, with a generally horrible fill rate (ie I order $1000 in livestock and receive $600). Or go with a cheaper wholesaler get a great fill rate, get reimbursed for DOA's, charge my customers less but end up with more casualties over the next week.
I dunno about other parts of the country but here on the east coast I feel kinda at the mercy of my wholesaler or whatever cherry picker I might be able to land for the month. Then you have transhipping... Yikes, you want to talk about a grab bag? Here I can order directly from the same people my wholesalers buy from, expect now instead of fish getting shipped from Fiji or the phillipines to LA, they are going all the way across the states as well to my shop But of course these means any poor shipping fish aren't going to make it, any corals that poked their bags open are dead and not too mention they are subjected to the nearly 2 day trip in bags half way across the world.
Here we deal with not only not getting reimbursed for dead fish corals etc, but probably dealing with someone that speaks verry little to no English (no offense to people that don't speak English, but from a buisness prospective, if you are dealing with a bucnh of american buisnesses, hire someone that can answer the phones in english).
I'm not sure where I was going with this, but I wanted to give some folks an idea of how their fish get to their fish store, and why fish get marked up so much...

 

[wickjr]

I think the LFS and the hobbyist share the responsibilty, though the hobbyist caries a bit more. Yes, a LFS should try to have knowledgeable employees, but as with any other business, that's not always going to happen. In my experience, the smaller LFS are usually a lot more detail and information oriented, though their prices are often higher than the larger stores for obvious reasons like buying power and what not. I do believe that the larger stores should try a little harder. If you are a large chain company and you sell corals and SW fish, you should have a person available at all times to assist only the SW customers. Whether this be a manager or whatever. Also, if an employee doesn't know an answer, GO ASK SOMEONE WHO DOES! I think that is my biggest problem with LFS employees or any other retailer is unknowledgeable employees giving false information.
I used to blame the LFS for my mistakes. I even made posts on here comlaining about their ineptitude. In the end, though, if we buy an animal that does not belong in our system and we can't care for, the blame rests with us, the hobbyists. We have all made the mistake of an impulse buy.(Mine was caularpa) Most have learned from the mistake. If you see something you want, go home and research it. Read books, websites, ask questions on forums, then go back. If it is still there and you can care for it, buy it. If not, there will be another. We are taking these fish/corals from their natural environment and keeping them for our own satisfaction. I think we owe it to them to make sure we can keep them alive and healthy. Why should we rely on an LFS employee to tell us whether we can?

 

[mps9506]

Why should we rely on an LFS employee to tell us whether we can?

I'm the type of person that feels that way about everything I always try my best to educate myself and do research before purchasing anything that I might need to know about. Goes for digital cameras, computer equipment, heck I even research allergy medicine this time of year before I go see my doctor It's just so easy now days to educate yourself that you don't have to rely on the word of one or two sales people.
I still have customers that think my word is the word of god when it comes to marine tanks. I try to point them out books or internet resources, but they'd rather take my word for it. That's just the way some customers are. Which works if they have someone reliable to listen to...

 

[Gina]

I feel also that alot of the responsiblilty rest on us (the customer). I also feel though that the LFS should have people who work for them have some knowledge about what they are selling.
The owner needs to make sure that his employess are educated on fish, corals and equiptment. He could certainly give them books to read or tell them to go on line and join a saltwater forum.

 

[lcstorc]

The customer should certainly do their research, but the LFS has a responsibility to either give a good answer or at least admit to not knowing.
I just switched all of my purchases from a LFS who would say "no problem" and "no special care needed" etc only to find out it was something very specialized etc. (worst story was a nubibrach) Yes, I should have researched first, but I fell prey to seeing something really cool and wanting it combined with knowing it would be sold by the next day if I came back. Now I give my business to a wonderful but small shop with an owner who is much less experienced but will at least admit it and help me find the answer. Frequently we will look it up on his laptop right there in the store. I would much prefer an honest I don't know than completely incorrect info. He is also willing to go shopping for anything I decide I want after the proper research so I am not limited to what he has in the shop at any given time.
It's been fabulous since I swapped and hopefully the other guy will realize that he will continue to lose business unless he makes some changes.
Peace
Lynn

 

[Little Luey]

Someone said the responsability is everyones, I agree to a certain degree. Not all LFS are in bussines because they love the hobby, some are just out to make money, and they will sell you what you go in there and say you want, it is bussinnes to them.
I cannot blame them for it since I get out of bed every morning to make a living myself and there are days that is more difficult to get out of bed than others. The stores that really care, you can tell who they are, they take pride on their place, stock and employees. So is my responsability to separete the two.
But it is also my responsability to know what I am doing, what gets along with what and what does not. Someone used the cars as an exemple, well, when you buy your car you want to know the miles per galon/or maintenance requirements to see it if will fit your driving needs, we must do the same with our hobby. I cannot blame the HS kid who is working the summer to get his savings going, and I cannot spect him/her to know or be able to tell me what I need to know myself. In this day there is information about everything and anything so readily available, so an uneducated customer should never be, you should have at least an idea of what you need to do in your tank and not spect someone else to do the research for you.
There is also people who reinvent the wheel seting up a tank, they do not listen to advice, they like to see if "this will work on my tank", newbies need to be able to educate themselves and listen. How many of us have seen a person keeping a tang in a 20gal tank? these are the requirements I am talking about, some people ask before buying and some don't, don't blame the Green Brittle Star for eating your snail or shrimp, it is just doing what they do. In my position at work I am responsible for the people I manage, I have to place them in the best situation for them to be successful; we need to do the same with our tanks.

Peace out.

 

[Witfull]

well said everyone,,,,

now, how can we efect the changes we would like to see? do we educate the employee, take them under our wing? offer sggestions to the powers that be? are we brave enough?

i open the floor~

 

[Charlie97L]

i have a bunch of LFS's in my area, and the one right near me is so so... I've never had any problems with the fish I've gotten there so far, but the corals are just not good... They do have 2 display tanks that are properly set up to hosue corals, and those look great, but the coral in the holding tanks look not too hot, but they're still setting up, so I have to give them some credit.

they just moved into a new space, and are dealing with a bunch of new employees... I'm in there a lot, and the manager knows me, so he doesn't mind if I correct one of the new guys... not that I'm an expert, but I do know most people don't want damsels in their tank initially as a "cycle fish" etc. I'm not afraid of helping out, just in my nature... but if there's a question I don't know, I'll definitely help them find the answer through the manager or advise them to look it up at home before they buy.

What they DO do well is go seek more experienced help if they don't know the answer, especially regarding the marine life. (it's an excellent FW store as well). I think there still are some issues (someone put a bicolor pseudochromis in a holding tank with 4 fire shrimp and it was in the process of going Predator on their butts, and got em all before i could get someone to fix the problem)... but overall a good store. Huge selection... I personally think they overorder on Tangs, but just MO.

There are some other, smaller places in the area I like much better, but they are sooo far away from me, it sucks. But I go there to make important purchases. But it's nice to have a shop right by me to pick up a pump, food, and phsoban.