Weird white spots on Regal Tang but they really don't seem like ich!?

[SeeK828]

Cool. If it isn't Marine Ich, then I'd go along with the Angel plan.

If the matter is in fact MHLLE, then the 'spots' are not raised up off the skin of the fish, but actually holes. Are they holes?

Nice to know that the Angel plan is a go!

As with the Tang, I am not too sure if they are holes and that is also why I still can't say it is MHLLE
some of them do look raised up off the skin a bit but still some don't look raised up.:smack:
but most importantly none of them really look like a hole though.
I am guessing it is probably not MHLLE but was considering it since the symptons dont seem to be contagious and the majority of the spots are indeed around the face and lateral line area of the Tang

I will keep with the Cupramine treatment while I try to feed him moe algae.
I'm also looking for de-worming all my fishes, especially the Tang, by following your instruction given in one of the stickies because the Tang has been listless all along I wonder if there is still something wrong inside his body that the Maracyn-Two couldn't take care of.

Will keep you posted!

Thanks

 

[miaskies]

I thought you are never supposed to use hyposalinity and medications at the same time?

 

[leebca]

You're correct miaskies. If there is a need, like during a Marine Ich attack a secondary bacterial infection sets in, then the proper med has to be chosen that is known to be usable in a hypo environment.

It has to be a known-approved med, otherwise a disaster may be inevitable :sinking:

 

[SeeK828]

Hi again to Lee and anyone else who might be reading this,

Back with some update.

The Tang has been in Cupramine treatment in the 45G and today is supposingly the finish date of the treatment.

Cupramine has been kept in 0.5ppm for the past 14 days. It has been checked and confirmed by an API test kit and the suggested Salifert test kit (yes, I finally got one!)

Unfortunately, the Cupramine didn't seem to have cured the symptoms.

The symptoms are more or less still the same.

Here is a recap of the previous symptoms along with any other new ones that i have found lately:
1) persistent, non-moving white spots around face and lateral line. Ich has pretty much been ruled out due to no "comes and goes" .
2) listlessness
3) constant state of fear. Fish hides at the back corner, behind a PVC pipe almost all day long, never venture more than, say, 10inches from the corner. He either lay flat on the bottom or up-straight laying against the side glass. (he does come out to the front glass for the seaweed though, when I’m not around)
4) Seems to be getting picky at what food he will eat. Used to eat Mysis, pellet, varieties of fronzen food, and Seaweeds. Now he pretty much only eats mysis and green, purple, and little bit of red seaweed. (I must add that he seems to have gain a bit weight around the stomach area though)

The following is the list of treatment that I have tried so far:
1) Hyposalinity for over 1 month (around 6 weeks? I can’t clearly remember by now but it was way over the suggested treatment length)
2) Maracyn-Two full treatment length
3) Cupramine 14 days at 0.5ppm

The Tang has been in this QT since March 31st. So it approaching three months now.

So now that the recap is over I am wondering if anyone, namely Lee (thanks so much) has any suggestion on what I can do next.
Do the persistent white spot, listlessness, and alertness ring any bell of a specific parasite?

I see lots of board range parasite treatment from a number of manufactures, such as Mardel, Jungle Labs, Aquarium Product, and etc. I am especially interested in a type of fizzy dissolving tablet from Jungle lab that states to cure multiple parasites. Could/Should I try such product?

Any comment will be greatly appreciated!

Thanks!

 

[SeeK828]

If anyone remembers, there used to be a juvenile Blue Ring Angel that was kept in the same QT with the Tang since the beginning but didn’t share any of the symptoms.

Since my last post the Angel has been moved to another QT that is 20G

She has been doing great for all these time and still shows no sign of disease without being involved in any treatment.

Her QT is finally approaching the SG lvl of the Display tank and she should be moved to the Display tank within a few days! (Once I make sure that the pH values are also perfectly matched)
Heres to hoping that all will go smoothly.

 

[leebca]

Give the Tang a FW dip/bath according to these instructions: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/31523-freshwater-dip-process.html

The only thing to change in the above linked procedure is to limit the time the fish is in the bath to 10 minutes.

Then, let the bath water settle and tell me what you see at the bottom of the bath water. Do you see any solids, organisms, or any of the 'spots' that came off the fish?

Then check the fish closely. Are the spots still there? Are they reduced in number?

Go ahead and remove as much of the copper from the water as you can, then perform the above treatment.

Hold off on the fizzies, until you try the above and report the results.

 

[lcstorc]

I'm here reading and learning.
Hopefully things will get better soon.

 

[SeeK828]

Hey all,

It has been too long.
3 months actually!
So here an update and hopefully some of you are still watching and will provide some comment!

I am happy to say that the Blue Ring Angel had move on from QT and is now in the relative comfort of the display tank. She has been there for what must have been almost 3 months now and she seems to be doing great!

The Tang, however, is still in QT.
During these few months, his condition has been ups and downs.
There was a time when I was starting to believe that he no longer has any infection on him and all that I was seeing on his body is old scarring from old infection.
I moved him to a smaller QT (20g) about a month ago so that I can keep an eye on him better and also to give him a little stress test with the moving to see if any disease shows up again.

Unfortunately, it did.

He current is still suffering from batches of unknown white spot on his body.

Since he moved to the 20g QT, I have tried Formulin for about a week and, though it did seem to help for a little bit initially, it didn't solve the problem.

I am now trying Cupramine again as some of the spots seem rather like ich to me, while some don't.

The Cupramine treatment has been running for three days now and nothing seems to be improving so I added some Maracyn Two just now as I seem to be noticing some red patches on his head and was worry that it would be some viral infection.

I really have no idea what to do next.
I will wait out the Cupramine treatment and monitor the copper level more closely this time to make sure it does it job as it is intended.
I will also do more frequent waterchange and hope that it will help with the problem.

One good thing is that now that the Tang is in a small tank, I might have better luck capturing a helpful picture to show you all his condition!
I can't wait to try that very soon

Until there is any news, wish me luck my friends!

Cheers.

 

[leebca]

Definitely provide us with a photo. I guess that the matter is not accurately diagnosed yet.

 

[SeeK828]

Find got some picture!
still not very clear but definitely better than nothing.

A couple things to note though:
1) The picture made the spots look kind of black in color but in fact they are quite white. The second and third picture provide a better image of the actual color of the spot
2) Again, they are mostly smooth on the surface of the fish's skin. There are only a few of the spots that looked to be actually on the fish "sticking out".

Hope this will give you all some idea as to what is really going on!

Can't wait to hear back from any of you!
Cheers.

 

[leebca]

Thanks for the photos. Much more helpful. Doing the best I can, that isn't a big Marine Ich infection. There are at least three things going on here.

1. MHLLE.
In order of what I think is most likely:
Vitamin deficiency (A and/or C); Poor Nutrition; see this reference:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...eeding-marine-fish-marine-fish-nutrition.html
Chronic Stress
Poor water quality (including high levels of dissolved organic matter and/or nitrate)
Activated carbon (either removing something the fish need or the dust clogging the pores on the fish)
Retrovirus
Hexamita
Amyloodinium-like dinoflagallate
Stray Voltage (is your system grounded properly?) [the article below disagrees with this one]

See this article for more info on MHLLE:
Marine Head & Lateral Line Erosion: A Description of the Syndrome and a Review of its Speculated Causes by Steven Pro - Reefkeeping.com

2. Poor nutrition
Above links will help with nutritional deficiencies (and probably led to the MHLLE). In addition, read and follow these posted recommendations:
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums...41782-how-feed-macro-alage-marine-fishes.html
and
http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums.../23069-different-forms-marine-fish-foods.html

3. Parasite
I'm glad this fish is already in quarantine. Those attached parasites should come off in a freshwater bath/dip. Follow the procedure given here: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/31523-freshwater-dip-process.html
EXCEPT instead of a 30-minute dip, leave the fish in there for only 12 minutes. Be aware that the fish will try to 'play opossum' and look like it's dead. Read the dip instructions carefully so you'll understand how to tell the difference between a stressed fish and a fish just playing dead.

Let bath water stand undisturbed after the dip. Then check the bottom of the bath water and see if there isn't many, many specs in the water. Report what you find, please.

4. ?
Maybe still Marine Ich or something else going on. Got to take care of 1-3 first.

Good luck!

 

[SeeK828]

Thanks so much lee!
I'm quite busy tonight so I probably can't do much to the fish and the tank tonight.
But i will start reading and doing things to help ASAP

I have one quick question though.
Should I discontinue the Cupramine and Maracyn Two Treatment right away?
I don't think the fish enjoys them that much.

Thanks!

 

[leebca]

Complete the Maracyn 2 treatment. Stop the copper treatment. As least this is what I would recommend. I hesitate cutting short any antibiotic treatment. In this case, the fish might need that help and the second is that I don't want any 'bad bacteria' to get accustomed to this antibiotic.

 

[SeeK828]

Complete the Maracyn 2 treatment. Stop the copper treatment. As least this is what I would recommend. I hesitate cutting short any antibiotic treatment. In this case, the fish might need that help and the second is that I don't want any 'bad bacteria' to get accustomed to this antibiotic.

Right, I forgot that Maracyn Two is an antibiotic so of course I wouldn't want to cut the treatment.

Thanks for the reminder!

 

[SeeK828]

Hi there again,

I just did a 50% waterchange for the 20gQT today.
Will keep up the waterchange to at least once per week and preferably even more.

I am planning to do a freshwater dip tomorrow but I have a question.
I can't seems to find Methylene Blue in my local area easily.
Is that absolutely crucial as part of the dip?
can I replace that with something else?
i still have a couple stores that i can check. But I don really want to get it online because I don't want to wait on this anymore.

Thanks!

 

[leebca]

That's a pity. MB has a nice calming affect and provides more oxygen to the fish -- also calming. You should consider getting some from an online supplier and have it on hand.

In the meantime, perform the dip. There is no substitute for this, just proceed without it.

 

[SeeK828]

Hey all,

I came today with unfortunate news.
I was able to obtain the MB and performed the dip last night.

However, the Tang didn't survive the treatment. Most likely due to my inexperience with the process.

At the late stage of the dip, I probably misinterpreted his signs of trouble as him playing dead.
I cut the dip at 11 minutes and 30 second but it was too late

By the time I took him for a rinse he was barely moving.
When I put him back in the QT he was already in the state which he can't really swim by himself and was push around by the water movement.
He soon landed on the bottom of the tank at the corner where he used to like to hang out.

I stood there by his side as he took his last few breath and he finally stopped breathing after about 5~10 minutes after getting back into the QT.

It was a long journey and I did learn a lot, but it is tragic that the fish has to pay the ultimate price for my learning. I'm terribly sorry.

Now, I just like to thank you all, especially Lee, for being here all these time and for offering so much help, suggestiosn, and comments. It was more than I could ever ask for.

Thanks so much.

 

[leebca]

Sorry to hear this. The fish looked pretty 'far gone' but I didn't want to seem to be negative. Did you check the bath water for anything settling out? Did any of the 'spots' come off?

 

[SeeK828]

Sorry to hear this. The fish looked pretty 'far gone' but I didn't want to seem to be negative. Did you check the bath water for anything settling out? Did any of the 'spots' come off?

Thanks again, Lee.
And I did look at the bath water actually.
But as far as I can tell not much of anything came off.
I diluted it quite a couple of times but still didn't see many things.
There are some tiny black spots on the bottom here and there but there weren't a lot of them and I can't tell if they are just 'dust' or something else
And I didn't notice much changes on the fish's body after the dip either.

So yeah, there were probably some but not a whole lot.