Weird white spots on Regal Tang but they really don't seem like ich!?

[SeeK828]

Hey everyone,

Sorry in advance for the long post but i just want to get the information out there as accurate as possible!

As the title suggested, I have a Regal tang in my QT.

The QT has alway been kept in hyposalinity at SG of 1.010
He has been there since March 31st, 2009
Initially he looked free of external parasites.
It was in around mid April when I first noticed two white spots on him. One is behind one of the eyes and the other is in the middle of that black patch that runs along the lateral line.
I suspected ich but was also doubtful since there was so little of them, just TWO. The spots also seems to be bigger and "whiter" (more white) than the ich spot i have seen for countless times. The spots are around 1~2mm in diameter and it is so white that it seems like I have caught the fish, pulled out my white-out correction pen, and drawn the dot on him.
I figured if it is ich then the hypo will help and the spot will fall off in ~7 days but it never came off.
Instead on April 31 I noticed some more around the mouth and slightly above the mouth in betweeen the mouth and the eyes.
They all look the same, big and very white.
It has been more than 7 days already and those spots are also still there.
There is a totaly of around 7 spots visible on him now.

The fish is and has always been eating well.
Body looks full, color is great, breathing normal, but just extremely shy which i thought is normal for tangs. But also led to the result of me not being able to show you all any pictures of it
I have also NEVER seen him scratch or flash at all which further fuel my doubtfulness of ich.

The Angel that is staying with him in the QT have NOT shown the same sigh at all during all these time.
The Angel, however, arrived with a weird looking semi-circle line on her tail fin.
The line seems to be made of multiple tiny tiny transparent but not white spots.
I initially thought it is ich too but AGAIN it never multipied.
Instead it is just there for all these time.
The Angel is eat well too but is not shy at all.
She will swim up to the glass and ask for food and will let me hand feed her.
But she swim so fast i can't get a clear look or a picture at that line on the tail.

Please don't flame me for quarantining two fish at once for now
I usually don't do that.
This is the first time I do this and I do have a reason for it, but I will not go into it for the sake of us all since this is already a long long post :read:

So!
My current plan is to continue quarantine with the hypo for at least another month and see what happens.
Meanwhile does anyone have any idea what might be happening?
Again, I understand that this is really hard without picture so I'm extremely sorry~!:smack:
I will keep trying to take picture and hopefully I will get some.
Anyone think I should take extra action in addition to the hyposalinity?

Thanks for reading such a long long post!!
Any comment is welcome!!

Thanks Thanks Thanks,
SeeK

 

[leebca]

The spots may well be a parasite (of a different sort), internal worms getting ready to emerge, and/or internal infection manifesting itself. Hard to say without more diagnostics. The probability of it spreading to the other fish in quarantine is high; death of both is also high unless you can figure out the diagnosis and perform the correct treatment before it gets further out of hand.

If you are not going to seek professional help (local vet college, Univ, State Fish & Game, etc.) then begin by a treatment with Maracyn 2 for Saltwater fishes, beginning by doubling the initial dose. Raise salinity to a sp. gr. of about 1.018 before treating with Maracyn Two. This will address infections.

After that 5-6 days treatment, report results. However I encourage you to find professional help to properly diagnose the condition(s).

 

[SeeK828]

The spots may well be a parasite (of a different sort), internal worms getting ready to emerge, and/or internal infection manifesting itself. Hard to say without more diagnostics. The probability of it spreading to the other fish in quarantine is high; death of both is also high unless you can figure out the diagnosis and perform the correct treatment before it gets further out of hand.

If you are not going to seek professional help (local vet college, Univ, State Fish & Game, etc.) then begin by a treatment with Maracyn 2 for Saltwater fishes, beginning by doubling the initial dose. Raise salinity to a sp. gr. of about 1.018 before treating with Maracyn Two. This will address infections.

After that 5-6 days treatment, report results. However I encourage you to find professional help to properly diagnose the condition(s).

Hi there Lee,

First off it is my pleasure to be finally speaking to you!
I have been reading a lot of your writings around the internet recently
and they are very informative.
Thank you.

Well back to my situation I guess.
You suggested Maracyn Two, which if my memory serves me, is an antibotic, is it not?
I have no previous experience with antibotic before or much of any medicine actually.
I have only cured a few cases of ich with hypo and once with copper.

So my question is, since we are not so sure on what is really happening at this point, what is the risk of using the antibotic?

To explain my point, say the fishes and the tank turn out to be not infected with any bacterial disease, would adding the unnecessary antibotic do more harm than good? Or is it always a good preventive measure?

Also, you mentioned this might be some other parasite instead of ich. If that is true, would Maracyn Two still work? I'm asking because I have always thought antibotic is only useful for treating bacterial related disease.
Does that mean if it is another type of parasite, then I should be looking for something else? Maybe copper? (though I hate using copper, I'm really paranoid about it)

Finally, I read somewhere on the web saying that I need slow readings of Ammonia, NO2, and NO3 to start the treatment.
My AMM and NO2 are 0 in the QT but NO3 is approaching 20ppm when I check two nights ago after a waterchange.
Is that okay to start the treatment?

Thanks in advance,
Again, nice finally meeting you, Lee

SeeK

 

[leebca]

Sorry we had to 'meet' under such circumstances. My hope some day is to never find anyone with a fish that is sick, ill, or injured.

Maracyn Two is an antibiotic (with some vitamins to stimulate eating).

If it can't cure whatever it is, or if the fish is perfectly healthy, the antibiotic does no known harm.

The antibiotic would only address the conditions on my list of possibles relating to an infection (bacterial). It has no or little effect on the others in that list, though it has been known to kill and harm some internal parasites.

There are many meds for 'other parasites.' Copper is just one. You can experiment and do a shotgun approach and if wrong, the fish will die. The disadvantage of using any 'wrong' treatment is that the fish gets sicker and dies. However, the systematic approach would be the use of the antibiotic first, then after that fails (if it does), a formalin bath (series of dips actually), then copper, and then other meds containing quinine, organophosphates, and other known chemicals that give parasites a hard time. But as you can, without knowing the enemy, the patient may not be getting the right treatment.

I have never heard of the need to have perfect water quality for treatment. Fish don't care much about nitrates and nitrates don't affect the medication. Ammonia and nitrites in low quantities (that wouldn't outright kill a fish) also do not affect this medication. Still, the water needs to be the best quality possible for the sake of the fish.

 

[SeeK828]

My hope some day is to never find anyone with a fish that is sick, ill, or injured.

Yes! Heres to hoping that such a day will come soon!

If it can't cure whatever it is, or if the fish is perfectly healthy, the antibiotic does no known harm.

Good to know.
I was being paranoid because of how our immune system gets in trouble if we over use antibotic
But I guess we are only talking about a one time treatment here so even if it is not really necessary it still wouldn't hurt.

However, the systematic approach would be the use of the antibiotic first, then after that fails (if it does), a formalin bath (series of dips actually), then copper, and then other meds containing quinine, organophosphates, and other known chemicals that give parasites a hard time.

Thanks so much for this!
I have been looking around and read a couple books for such a clear/direct systematic approach on diagnosing/treating fish disease but none of what i've read so far put it so clearly.

Still, the water needs to be the best quality possible for the sake of the fish.

Yes, I will try my very best to maintain a good quality

Just a couple more questions if I might,
You mentioned I need to raise the SG before starting the treatment. I read some of your other posts and understand that hypo affects the effect of most medicine and usually in a bad way.
However, since Maracyn Two won't treat ich, and raising the SG will likely give the ich a chance to further manifest itself, should I wait a little longer before rasing the SG just in case IT IS indeed ich that we are dealing with?
Or do you think that, from the info I have given you so far, it is already suffice to rule out ich at this point?

Again, thanks so much for helping!
SeeK

 

[DrHank]

I merely wanted to add that it could simply be a temporary symptom of stress. My purple tang has twice developed a white spot just behind the gill when I added a new fish. In both instances the spot went away in a few days and the fish has been healthy for 3 years.

Having two fish in QT together may induce enough stress to cause a similar reaction. I would try to QT separately if there is any way possible to do so.

 

[leebca]

I had pretty much ruled out Marine Ich from your description. You had indicated that despite the hyposalinity, the original spots didn't go away and that new spots appeared and lasted a long time. If I am not summarizing this properly, let me know and correct me.

That is not usually how Marine Ich behaves during a hyposalinity treatment.

You have to go with your best diagnosis. If you still believe it is Marine Ich, then continue the treatment.

 

[SeeK828]

Having two fish in QT together may induce enough stress to cause a similar reaction. I would try to QT separately if there is any way possible to do so.

I agree and this is my bad, I know.
I will never do that again.
Although the two fishes are separated by a divider and seems to totally ignore the existent of each other, I would have been able to move the Angel to the display long ago if it is actually quarantining by herself...

so ya, not happening again.

 

[SeeK828]

I had pretty much ruled out Marine Ich from your description. You had indicated that despite the hyposalinity, the original spots didn't go away and that new spots appeared and lasted a long time. If I am not summarizing this properly, let me know and correct me.

That is not usually how Marine Ich behaves during a hyposalinity treatment.

You have to go with your best diagnosis. If you still believe it is Marine Ich, then continue the treatment.

I see.
and yes you summarized just fine. That is pretty much what is happening

I just want to add here that some of the white spot seems weird to me because, unlike ich which is always like a tiny salt crytal sticking out of and ON the fish, some of these white spot on the Tang now seems to be perfectly flat on the skin, hence my desciption of the spot looking like I have drawn it myself.
It almost seems that it is supposed to be a part of the fish's natural color pattern.
I thought about HLLE or Hole in Head but they don't seems to be a hole.

I have gotten a new idea.
I will try to set up my camcorder in front of the QT and record for an hour or two. Since the fish swims around when i'm not there. I might be able to catpure some useful footage and pull still picture out of them to show you all.

I will report back as soon as there are changes to the situation.
Thanks again

 

[SeeK828]

Okay some news.
I just went down to the QT for the first feeding of the day.
I now think the major problem is not ich and I should start rasing the SG in preparaion for the antibotic.
This is because I think the problem seems to be manifesting and i see two very pale dots on the belly of the tang. Almost like they are forming those big white dots in other places
Don't think those were there before.

I do however noticed one or two tiny spots near the mouth area that seems similar to ich.

Could we be dealing with two or more problem at once here? Ich with something else, bacterial or another parasite?

If so what should I do?
use copper and antibotic at the same time??
is it really not possible to keep the tank in Hypo for the ich and use antibotic for any possible bacterial infection?

Man this is getting out of hand. Should I just raise the SG and get the Angel out of there first as soon as possible? Should I set up another 10G QT and move the Angel there?
The angel is doing so well and has always been so well I would kill myself if she starts to go downhill because of this and my bad desicion to get two fish at a time.

 

[leebca]

You need to think in terms that whatever one fish has, the other has. If one fish came with one disease, and the other fish came with another disease, now both fishes have both diseases. Keeping them together would make sense, in most cases. Some cases, separating them but keeping each in quarantine would be the way forward. I favor doing the latter (putting each into its own QT) until you have a better handle on the diagnosis.

It is certainly possible that there are multiple pathogens at work here. Without photos I can't say for sure. A copper treatment can be performed at the same time Maracyn 2 is used. A hyposalinity treatment can also be performed while using Maracyn 2, however you don't double the dosage during hyposalinity treatment.

The downside is that it is still unsure what it is to be treated. What you need to do is make up your mind, since I can't do that for you. I can't do much more than this without photos and better information. It could be a can of worms or something straightforward. But what it is for sure from my perspective is. . .unknown.
:tumble:

 

[SeeK828]

You need to think in terms that whatever one fish has, the other has. If one fish came with one disease, and the other fish came with another disease, now both fishes have both diseases. Keeping them together would make sense, in most cases. Some cases, separating them but keeping each in quarantine would be the way forward. I favor doing the latter (putting each into its own QT) until you have a better handle on the diagnosis.

It is certainly possible that there are multiple pathogens at work here. Without photos I can't say for sure. A copper treatment can be performed at the same time Maracyn 2 is used. A hyposalinity treatment can also be performed while using Maracyn 2, however you don't double the dosage during hyposalinity treatment.

The downside is that it is still unsure what it is to be treated. What you need to do is make up your mind, since I can't do that for you. I can't do much more than this without photos and better information. It could be a can of worms or something straightforward. But what it is for sure from my perspective is. . .unknown.
:tumble:

Okay.
I get what you mean.
I'll make up my mind today.
I think I might go for Maracyn Two with hypo

I do want to move the fishes to two different QT at this point but the only thing I have is 10G. I'm afraid it is too small for either fish. What do you think? If the size is okay, which fish, in your opinion, should be in the smaller tank?
If it is really necessary, I saw some 20G on sale yesterday and I might be able to get one of those if it will serve the fish better. What do you think? Is spending the extra $$ for the 20G, which i might never use again, necessary? Or can I get away with a 10G QT?

I tried some picture today but they all turned out too blurry
I might try some more later today.

Once again, thanks for spending all these time to help me out.

 

[leebca]

I'd recommend going the 20g. It may be something you will not use again, however it can make a good Christmas gift.

 

[SeeK828]

I'd recommend going the 20g. It may be something you will not use again, however it can make a good Christmas gift.

Got ya.
Alright I'll try my best and report back when there are changes.
Thanks for all your input again.

 

[SeeK828]

Okay quick report.
Just added the first dose of Maracyn Two earlier tonight
Removed 5 gallons of water to make the tank closer to 40G which makes it easier to dose.
Did a 3 gallons waterchange before the first dose

Everything else is as usual
the tang is still doing not bad but the symptoms are still there.
The angel is still doing great
SG is still 1.010.
Closely monitoring Amm,NO2,NO3,pH, and Alk.

Will report back if anything changes or after 5 days.

 

[leebca]

Obtain and start testing for calcium and magnesium, along with the alkalinity. Keep us informed.

 

[SeeK828]

Obtain and start testing for calcium and magnesium, along with the alkalinity. Keep us informed.

Haven't check Calcium yet and haven't have time to get a magnesium kit yet but Alk is at around 11dKH.
How are calcium and magnesium coming into play at this point?

Right now the tank is still at hyposalinity at SG of 1.010 and under going Maracyn Two treatment (just passed three days).
I do not think the Maracyn Two is curing the external spots, which pretty much makes it clear that it should be some kind of eternal parasite that is not ich.

I intent to start treating with Cupramine as soon as possible.
However I want to make clear of a couple of things first.
I have read in books that hypo enchances the effectiveness of copper treatment BUT also noticed that you suggested otherwise.
So should I raise the SG?
If so, how high should I raise it to? I keep my Display at 1.024.
Also, I remember you said I can safely mix Maracyn Two with copper but I noticed on the bottle description of Cupramine that it warns of not mixing it with other medicine. Just want to make sure there is no special case for Cupramine.
Finally, do i really need the Seachem test kit to test for Cupramine like you suggested (follow the brand of the copper for the testkit)?
Because to me the closest place that have the Seachem test kit is pretty far away.

Thanks

 

[leebca]

Let's see if I answer all your questions and concerns. If I miss something, just let me know. . .

1. Alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium -- all three -- control the buffering ability of the water, which in turn controls the pH stability. Fish need a stable pH and this is how it is maintained. You will need to do more reading on this: http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/fish-diseases-treatments/34037-what-water-quality.html
and
A Simplified Guide to the Relationship Between Calcium, Alkalinity, Magnesium and pH by Randy Holmes-Farley - Reefkeeping.com

2. Maracyn Two does not affect the Marine Ich parasite. Your statement:

I do not think the Maracyn Two is curing the external spots, which pretty much makes it clear that it should be some kind of eternal parasite that is not ich.

is erroneous. Are you sure you have a handle on what it is you are doing and for what reason? Just checking.

3. Copper and salinity can be used together, but the danger is a drop in pH which makes the safe concentration of copper become lethal to the fish. The two being used together is totally unnecessary. Each will kill off the parasite on their own. More is not better for the fish.

4. The makers of Cupramine have confirmed in writing that their product can be used during the use of Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes.

5. Keep the salinity of the QT the same as your display salinity.

6. Seachem is actually not a very good choice with Cupramine. It is a difficult test to use and to 'read.' I know for a fact that the Salifert Copper Test Kit will work just as well (or better) in measuring the copper concentration during the Cupramine copper treatment. Other than this test kit, I can't vouch for any other. Each copper med manufacturer knows which test kits provide a proper analysis, so if you have another in mind, best to contact the test kit manufacturer and/or Seachem.

Good luck!

 

[SeeK828]

1. Alkalinity, calcium, and magnesium -- all three -- control the buffering ability of the water, which in turn controls the pH stability. Fish need a stable pH and this is how it is maintained.

Right, I have read those posts before actually.
I'll keep them in check.
I have a pH monitor monitoring the QT at all time so I'll see my eyes on the pH.

2. Maracyn Two does not affect the Marine Ich parasite. Your statement: is erroneous. Are you sure you have a handle on what it is you are doing and for what reason? Just checking.

Yes I remember what you said before and understand that IF it is parasite then the Maracyn Two wouldn't cure it.
However, I remember you first suggested that it might NOT be parasite but some internal infection starting to manifest, hence our approach of going for antibotics first.
When I say that the Maracyn Two isn't curing the spot, I meant that this should/could be the sign that this IS some sort of parasite and not some infection. Therefore, I said I want to move on to parasite treatment as soon as possible.
Well, I guess at least the weird spots i'm seeing is not infection. I understand that there can still be infection hidden.

3. Copper and salinity can be used together, but the danger is a drop in pH which makes the safe concentration of copper become lethal to the fish. The two being used together is totally unnecessary. Each will kill off the parasite on their own. More is not better for the fish.

Right, I now remember reading you say this in your copper treatment post.
I'm sorry to have asked this again.

4. The makers of Cupramine have confirmed in writing that their product can be used during the use of Maracyn Two for Saltwater fishes.

5. Keep the salinity of the QT the same as your display salinity.

Got it

6. Seachem is actually not a very good choice with Cupramine. It is a difficult test to use and to 'read.' I know for a fact that the Salifert Copper Test Kit will work just as well (or better) in measuring the copper concentration during the Cupramine copper treatment. Other than this test kit, I can't vouch for any other. Each copper med manufacturer knows which test kits provide a proper analysis, so if you have another in mind, best to contact the test kit manufacturer and/or Seachem.

AGAIN! I have actually read you say that before but forgot when I asked my question.
HAHA anways, I got it now and thanks for not being annoyed.

Thanks!

 

[leebca]

I am so used to getting questions on what was explained in posts, that I don't get annoyed anymore.

Just as long as things are clear in your mind -- that is what is important to helping the fish.