Val's 55gal Freshwater planted community tank

[DaveK]

I've been researching replacing my current substrate, which is normal gravel over Laterite laced gravel. After quite a few years, I don't seem to be getting the the plant growth or color out of the system.

There seems to be several generally accepted methods of doing substrate in FW planted tanks.

Using SeaChem's Flourite
Using CaribSea's Eco-Complete
Using ADG's Aqua Soil
other various proprietary substrates
Using a 1 inch layer of potting soil or potting soil and peat moss mix under 2 inches of normal aquarium gravel

The first four options have one good thing going for them. They are easy to use. They have one big disadvantage. They range in price from very expensive to extremely expensive. The use of potting soil under gravel is starting to look better and better.

 

[Val]

I was a manager at a landscape nursery for years and we sold potting soil but we didn't use it. I seriously would not recommend it for an aquarium. I think you would be better off just using one bag of substrate with aquarium gravel. Going thin on the correct product would produce better results than adding potting soil. JMO

 

[DaveK]

Actually, using potting soil comes highly recommended by several serious books on planted tanks and on the net. Now this should be plain old potting soil, with no fertilizer added. Also, if you go this way you should not add fish that dig. This is also something you set up and let run for awhile before you stock it. Sort of how you would set up a hot bed for starting non-aquarium plants early.

I can also see that this method is not recommended for beginners. If you do have a major problem with it, you will need to do a complete tear down of the tank.

The big upside is that potting soil is supposed to provide a nutrient base that will last a long time, like 8 - 10 years. Most of the other substrates are not able to do this. It is also claimed that such systems do not need CO2 fertilization to get similar plant growth. The other big advantage is much lower cost. Obviously some one interested in growing a lot of plants needs a lot of room set up. The more modern substrates would be cost prohibitive.

I'm still doing my research on this. I might even try a pilot project using something like a 20 gal ligh tank first.

 

[Val]

Yeah I've read about it, but my problem is with most packaged potting soils. I do think a test tank would be a great idea. Adding the peat on top of the soil may be the key. Just be careful of what kind of potting soil would be my advice.

It just seems expense and aquariums go hand in hand.

 

[bbe22]

If anything I'd put peat on the bottom, it's very coarse. This is why I keep it (in a pantyhose) in my sump. The first few weeks in a tank, you can expect a lot of sediment in your pre-filters. And that's when it's in a pantyhose...

It's great for buffering low ph tanks, but does have it's issues: sediment, tannins, hard to keep in a pantyhose thingie without tearing) but I wouldn't trade it out for anything. Best natural buffer ever for soft acidic tanks. If I were going to do the potting soil thing I'd give the tank an extra month and be prepared to do a lot of filter cleaning. I let plant and fish detritus do all my "dirt". Works great, simply don't vacuum your gravel/substrate. My current discus tank has been up and running for about 2 years, haven't lost a fish yet. I'm all about NOT using chemicals, whenever possible. Organic freshwater tanks always work the best. Just my two cents.

 

[bbe22]

I'd like to see what Paul can add here. I agree with 99% of what he says when it comes to planted tanks. Personally, I wouldn't use potting soil. I highly doubt an endurance of 8+ years. It doesn't last more than a year in the conditions it is designed for, and an aquarium is going to put a lot more stress on it. I'd just stick with the proven, small gravel or large sand, and if you have a few extra bucks throw in a layer of Flourite. As mentioned, I have pea-gravel in my planted tank and I have ample lighting, fert once a month and I can't keep up with the growth. I trim and cut and trade out for different stuff, but at this point I'm out of room for more plants. I'm trading plants in for coral now. My formula for incredible growth is simple: 5.5ph, 86 Fahrenheit, 2 tbsp Flourish once a month, one water change (20%) a month, and never ever vacuum the tank. Granted, I have an army of snails. This also is a 55 sitting on top of a wet/dry built for a 300 pouring into a 35 gallon sump with 265 watts of ho light on it. Overkill for the win

 

[Val]

I think the key here will be right soil, and DaveK has alot of experience so that will help. It'll be an interesting test I hope he does a thread on it so we can follow along.

A simple plant structure would help too. Alot of moss/groundcover to help hold thee peat and potting soil down. I'm wondering how a sandy loam/peat mixture would work.

Yeah would be nice to Pem and Mini both put some input on this.

 

[DaveK]

... Personally, I wouldn't use potting soil. I highly doubt an endurance of 8+ years. It doesn't last more than a year in the conditions it is designed for, and an aquarium is going to put a lot more stress on it. I'd just stick with the proven, small gravel or large sand, and if you have a few extra bucks throw in a layer of Flourite. ...

I've seen the picts you posted on you discus tank, and it does look excellent. In fact, if my goal was to keep discus, that's almost exactly what I'd do. From the picts it looks like you are growing a lot of vallisneria.

For a number of reasons it grows really well, even if just planted in gravel. I've got a forest of it myself, and I've given away or thrown away massive amounts of plants.

Keep in mind that in my case, we are talking about a long established planted tank, that has been doing very well, but the plant growth and color isn't where I want it to be. I know the reason for this. Now I working on the method I want to use to improve things.

Also, I want to take the system to the next level and grow some more unusual, tougher to keep plants. This is going to require going beyond what would normally be done for a typical, someone just getting started, FW planted tank.

 

[bbe22]

You are correct Dave, there is a ton of Val in there. It started with three single shoots of three different types and just took off from there. There's also a huge amazon sword, a pink lily, a melon sword, two blooming bananas, three varieties of crypto's, and about 10 other random species in there. I want a Madagascar Lace, but I can't find one and I don't like the idea of ordering on-line (I like to see it before I buy it). My phone isn't the best camera. If you are going to do the potting soil, I suggest adding some peat moss in the mix. I could be wrong about the endurance of potting soil, but from experience peat moss has incredible endurance. As far as going beyond the typical, does that mean you are going to be using co2? If you are looking for more color and more challenging plants....

 

[Val]

If I didn't buy plants online, my tank wouldn't have much variety. My favorite place to shop for live plants is Planted Aquariums Central I actually found them on ebay and I have always been very satisfied with the health of the plants and the amount received.

 

[DaveK]

... I want a Madagascar Lace, but I can't find one and I don't like the idea of ordering on-line (I like to see it before I buy it). ...

I can usually find this plant locally, at a coupld of good LFS, but it is seasonal, and comparatively expensive, usually about $8 - $15 per plant.

I don't have any currently. I have had them in the past and they do look fantastic. They generally grow well, but the plant has one big downside. It's got to have a dormant period every year, where it needs to be kept in cooler water for a few months. This is a pain.

 

[PEMfish]

Potting soil!? Iv heard of people putting alot of differnt things in there tanks that terrify me. So Ive been conditioned to accept potting soil as a less insane idea. Still, I would never consider it in my tank. Its unpredictable and uncontrollable. It also takes away some aquascaping freedoms, once a plant has an established root system you wont want to take it out or move it.

Your on the right track thinking soil, but potting soil isn't what I might recomend. Try looking at pond products, see what you find there. Also, I think ADA might have a soil product.

 

[DaveK]

Potting soil!? Iv heard of people putting alot of differnt things in there tanks that terrify me. So Ive been conditioned to accept potting soil as a less insane idea. Still, I would never consider it in my tank. Its unpredictable and uncontrollable. It also takes away some aquascaping freedoms, once a plant has an established root system you wont want to take it out or move it.

Your on the right track thinking soil, but potting soil isn't what I might recomend. Try looking at pond products, see what you find there. Also, I think ADA might have a soil product.

As I pointed out in my previous posts on the subject, the use of potting soil, and by this I mean soil that does NOT contain any other additives, is a well know, and not that uncommon an item to use.

I am rather surprised that I have gotten a lot of feed back about the use of this media, and yet no one has said that they have actually tried it. To give you some specific references -

Here is what Peter Hiscock says about the subject in his book Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants -

"Soil-based substrate Generally speaking beginners should avoid using soil in the aquarium, as the results can vary wildly. However, more experienced aquarists find that soil can be one of the best long-term planting substrates. It contains large amounts of carbon and iron, both readily used by aquatic plants, as well as a number of other nutreiets that are slowly released or retained by the soil. ..."
​

Lots more information follows, but you get the idea.

Here is what Diana Walstad says in her book Ecology of the Planted Aquarium -

"Using soil in aquariums is a strong ideological barrier for many aquarium hobbyists. Here, I am specifying soils that ordinary gardeners grow plants in - gardens soil or potting soil. (I'm not talking about subsoils, vermiculite, pottery clay, kitty litter or gravel additives.)

I think that the risks of using soils in aquariums have been greatly exaggerated. If a soil can support the growth of terrestrial plants, whether they are weeds or flowers, then it can grow aquatic plants. And the problems that soils sometimes cause are generally temporary and can be gotten around. ..."​

This is followed by rest of chapter on soil based substrate.

As you can see these people are NOT a "couple of turkeys" when it comes to planted tanks, but are two of the most respected authors on planted aquarium books.

 

[bbe22]

Hey, I agree Dave. Go for it. I have a feeling the water is going to be cloudy for awhile, but you probably know that too. I can't wait to see the results. Good luck in the best of senses and sincerity.

Brian

 

[DaveK]

... I have a feeling the water is going to be cloudy for awhile, but you probably know that too. ...

Yea, that's a possible start up issue. However, I have a Vortex Diatom filter I can use to take care of any issues there. Also, once the bacteria get going, they will form a sticky film that will trap most problems of cloudy water.

I'm more worried about possible pH swings and swings in the other parameters, especially nitrate and phosphate.

However, you don't set up the tank for what it's going to look like during the first few weeks. (grin)

 

[PEMfish]

Come to think of it, one of my plants is in soil. No idea what kind but it seems to work well. The big thing I like about it is its natural.
Like I said, I wouldn't want it in my tank but I see no reason it shouldn't be not used.

 

[bbe22]

Any updates here Dave? Pics!

 

[Val]

I finally was able to move this tank back into the livingroom, so I decided to redo it. I ordered in a bag of Flourite, some Mopani driftwood and since I'm using RO/DI water I bought some Seachem Equilibrium RO Water Conditioner for planted fw tanks. It'll buffer the water and replace the minerals lost.

I gave away alot of the plants and part of the substrate and added a bag of Flourite to freshen up the remaining substrate. Boiled the driftwood and soaked it until the water was mostly clear. So far this is where I'm at: I apologize for not cleaning the front glass and the filter just started running so the water is still cloudy.

I kept the following plants:
ANUBIAS BARTERI VAR. NANA-2
Golden Lloydiella, Gold Creeping Jenny
Limnophila indica,ANCHARIS (Egeria densa)
Wisteria
Baby tears
dwarf Baby tears
dwarf hair grass
Foxtail green
Foxtail red
Sword plants -3
Moss Balls -2 they are about twice the size they were in the original pic of this thread.

I'm thinking about the following plants to add more color and texture:

Echinodorus angustifolia Vesuvius -3 similar to Val but curlier
MADAGASCAR LACE PLANT -1
NESAEA SP RED LEAVED - 10 stems
MYRIOPHYLLUM TUBERCULATUM 'RED'- 8 stems

GLOSSOSTIGMA ELATINOIDES? not sure about this one. may just add some pygmy chain swords.

 

[Val]

ack hit enter by mistake. Anyway I'll add the pic in this one. I just starting playing with the driftwood and I may add a couple of those Texas Holey rocks I have stored in the barn. I'm thinking I may want to put that one large piece of driftwood higher or something. I'll update as this progesses.

 

[Val]

I ordered a few plants and some cherry shrimp for it today. I decided to add some rock to it and the remaining plants I had. Then the fish went back in. Here is it so far: