Unanswered Question

I've asked this a couple of times when someone has mentioned the deep sand bed in their tank. My old reef was a bare bottom tank and anything on the bottom was discouraged, sand, crushed coral, anything that could create an anaerobic environment and the possible release of methane gas. If you wanted a substrate, the maximum depth was just enough to cover the bottom, literally. Where they wrong then. Has something changed?
 

jerry26

Member
i think its more dsb or little to no sand. if youre not going with a dsb than theres no real point in using alot of sand. thats my understanding of it. i personally only cover my bottom with 1~1.5" of sand.
 

PSU4ME

JoePa lives on!!!
Staff member
PREMIUM
Go less than 1 inch or more than 3 inches.... In between is no mans land
 
Go less than 1 inch or more than 3 inches.... In between is no mans land

Seconded. I've only seen DSBs in fuges in the last few years. Mostly your denitrification bacteria will reside in LR or similar so why waste space unless you have "tenants" that need a DSB. :wave:
 

Akshay

Member
And I have always used a dsb... running a 6" now and it's been 7 yrs.
Ideally I prefer a balanced system with minimal mechanical filters and more natural filtration.
Also would rather do w/c than additives.
 
I think you're right, Mikecc. And now that I know that it's hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and not methane, I can search it more effectively. Apparently it's still a problem and if for some reason a deep sand bed got stirred, as in removing sand to seed another tank, it's still a possibility that you could kill off your entire tank. So why do people use sand? It's not an effective filter if it's not getting oxygen to it like if the oxygen could be forced through the sand because we know that a lack of oxygen creates an anaerobic atmosphere. Is it possible that there are people on here with expensive, beautiful tanks that are a ticking time bomb? I'd like to hear everything that I can before I start my build.
 
Thanks Bearjohnson.... I read it. It doesn't really address my question and deals with nitrate in the reef but it is good information, so thanks.
 

AquaFXdotnet

RS Sponsor
Coming from a fish only set up to now having a Reef its really hard for me to not like a DSB. Currently its about 4", the sand sifter and horseshoes love it! With that being said I'm considering aquascaping a smaller tank and with that I will probably go with no sand at all.
 

kyle4201

Active Member
wont sand sifting stars and like animals take care of your sand for you, as in not letting it just sit there unstirred for long periods of time to build up bad things?
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
I think you're right, Mikecc. And now that I know that it's hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and not methane, I can search it more effectively. Apparently it's still a problem and if for some reason a deep sand bed got stirred, as in removing sand to seed another tank, it's still a possibility that you could kill off your entire tank. So why do people use sand? It's not an effective filter if it's not getting oxygen to it like if the oxygen could be forced through the sand because we know that a lack of oxygen creates an anaerobic atmosphere. Is it possible that there are people on here with expensive, beautiful tanks that are a ticking time bomb? I'd like to hear everything that I can before I start my build.

The answer to your question is a chapter in a book, but I will attempt a short answer and hope that it is concise enough.

I have a tank that is 8 1/2 years old and it is always clean and I attribute that to a deep sand bed. I have never vacuumed the sand and I have never had nuisance algae grow on the sandbed.

You're missing something in the equation. If you have a deep enough sand bed, over three inches, you will not have a build up of H2S because there will be denitrifying bacteria to eliminate that. When you have a sandbed that is over 1/2" and under 3" is when you can run into problems.

I'm sorry I was going to take the time to answer your question, but I just really don't have the time. I HATE MONDAYS. I'm going to quote a book instead. This is a few paragraphs out of "Book of Coral Propagation" by Anthony Calfo. I highly recommend that every reefer read this book.

"The plain truth of the matter is that the actual depth is all that matters and sufficient product should be added to achieve your desired goal. Sand between 1/2 inch and three inches is usually not deep enough to reduce nitrate and yet too deep to be fully aerobic. In my opinion, it is a recipe for disaster and partly the reason why some aquarists have failed when employing static DSB or Jaubert style plenums. In some cases, the failure is simply the penalty for cost cutting and shimping on substrate depth.

Ultimately, I recommend six inches of fine aragonite sand (<2mm) as a minimum for optimal denitrification and mineral support from a DSB. The dissolution of sand is quite advantageous as aragonite contains balanced ratios of elements such as calcium and carbonates. These compounds are liberated when the substrate becomes acidified. The availability of growth-supporting minerals from dissolving aragonite sand is a significant benefit, as the media has a "half-life" of about 2 years or less (fully half of the sand bed will dissolve and can support coral growth with little or no additional calcium supplements.)

Another interesting benefit of deep sand beds is the competition of the living substrate with nuisance algae for nutrients. Nitrifying bacteria in the oxygenated upper region of the substrate will compete with pest organisms for ammonia and other nutritive compounds in the water. There are limitations to the process, or course, and aquarists who have suffered significant blooms of algae that they wanted to blame o the sand bed should consider their overall system husbandry. It must also be noted that success with deep sand beds for some have been attributed to partially open systems for better overall water quality."

There's a lot more information I can give you on DSB's besides nitrate reduction and nutrient control. Like how important the microfauna is to the overall health of a saltwater tank. Or how it has been well documented by leading aquarists that stir their substrates to feed corals with dissolved organics, bacteria, and plankton when keeping very challenging corals.

There's a long list of how beneficial a DSB can be to a saltwater tank. But I can tell you through personal experience of keeping saltwater tanks for around 25 years that I have had sandbed of different depths and also no sand. IME the tanks with the DSB's require almost zero maintenance and are far and above the cleanest and healthiest of the tanks I've kept.
 

DianaKay

Princess Diana
RS STAFF
This is interesting to me because I mostly just put in my sand for the "looks" of it and now I have lots & lots of worms that live in my sand bed. I don't want to disturb them so I don't clean my sand bed except around the viewable glass edges. I probably have a dangerous level sand bed :(
 

jerry26

Member
I think you're right, Mikecc. And now that I know that it's hydrogen sulfide (H2S), and not methane, I can search it more effectively. Apparently it's still a problem and if for some reason a deep sand bed got stirred, as in removing sand to seed another tank, it's still a possibility that you could kill off your entire tank. So why do people use sand? It's not an effective filter if it's not getting oxygen to it like if the oxygen could be forced through the sand because we know that a lack of oxygen creates an anaerobic atmosphere. Is it possible that there are people on here with expensive, beautiful tanks that are a ticking time bomb? I'd like to hear everything that I can before I start my build.

i believe the anaerobic atmosphere is actually the key to effective nitrate reduction. i could be wrong.
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
i believe the anaerobic atmosphere is actually the key to effective nitrate reduction. i could be wrong.

Exactly: Denitrification by dissimilation is a breakdown of nitrate into nitrogen gas. The process is accomplished by bacteria in low oxygen zones. Because the denitrifying bacteria have no oxygen to use they feed on the nitrates instead. Bacteria need a carbon source to live.
 

DianaKay

Princess Diana
RS STAFF
I've been wondering if air pockets in my sand bed were good or bad. Test my water yesterday and nitrates are near zero (doesn't show on test color chart), never had a high nitrate reading. Phosphates are .16 yesterday....tank is 9 months running. Here's the bubbles under the sand through the glass:
null_zpse774714a.jpg
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Are these air bubbles bad stuff? What should I do if they are? :dunno::help:
 

Mike Johnson

Well-Known Member
I don't see anything bad in your photo. Something bad would be black or yellow. Air pockets would probably be considered a good thing. Could be O2 or C02 or nitrogen gas before escaping. I think you are over obsessing about nothing.
 

jerry26

Member
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I've been wondering if air pockets in my sand bed were good or bad. Test my water yesterday and nitrates are near zero (doesn't show on test color chart), never had a high nitrate reading. Phosphates are .16 yesterday....tank is 9 months running. Here's the bubbles under the sand through the glass:
null_zpse774714a.jpg
[/IMG]
Are these air bubbles bad stuff? What should I do if they are? :dunno::help:

your tank is well maintained and healthy. i wouldnt pay any attention to them. i definitly wouldnt stir them up.
 

DianaKay

Princess Diana
RS STAFF
Words like "time bomb" and "no mans land" when I've got lots of bubbles forming in my 2 to 3 inch sand bed....kinda worries me :yup: and I'm fixing to add a refugium that I wanted a DSB in. :ponder2: having a reef tank just isn't simple as to what's best & what needs to be completely avoided.
 
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