The truth about lighting

Craig Manoukian

Well-Known Member
Mike,

When you talk to Anthony, will you get a clarification please. Keep in mind this was a general statement to a group of 50 people. Most of what I've expeienced and heard is that we tend to underfeed our corals, though not intentionally. It makes sense to me.



:) :D ;) :p :smirk: :cool:
 

Curtswearing

Active Member
I agree we have to go individual species.

We feed corals (indirectly) with proper lighting and directly with foods. On some corals, we can underfeed 2 both ways. Or we could put a tubastrea 6 inches under 400w MH's and not feed it at all.
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Yes Craig that does fall inline with the general direction people are getting pushed (feed more) One that I dont readily agree with, and still have not been able to find any solid data to back thier position.
Blanket statements about corals in general can not be made like this. Thier are alot of corals do not require any light.
Scott Kelvin does matter. if you were to place a 400K bulb over a reef and it had unbelievable intencity, it would do absolutely nothing for the corals. The quick reason that High K bulbs have less intencity is a mechcanical thing. It gets a little deep Scott, I dont really have a chance to post a good one giving the concept at this moment (babysitter 47 men on a site) but I will as soo as I get a free moment.

Mike
 

ScottT1980

Well-Known Member
NP at all Mike, we are all busy. Actually, that is why I am doing more question asking than research on my own, because right now, I am swamped. I will try to do some digging as well later on tonight if I have the chance, perhaps refreshing my memory on photosynthesis I and II as well as the wavelength requirements, etc...

I still want to see the growth studies and will continue to look for those. Of course, if these studies do exist, then most likely they will only involve one species, well, at least in the laboratory...

Anyway, thanks to everyone!

Take er easy
Scott T.
 

Boomer

Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Scott

Ok, lets start from the top


Have there been any studies looking at growth rates under different Kelvin bulbs to back up what everyone says, that the Kelvin rating of a bulb does not matter?

No, none that I know of.

As Mike and Witt have stated, more or less.

On the color of the bulb yes it is very important to a point. low K bulbs will have no effect or use to a coral. A coral can only utilize light at certain wavelengths, the rest are useless regardless of intensity.

Of course, lets not try to exaggerate, when we say K has no effect on growth. I believe I said as long as it is a reasonable K. Corals won't do well, at say 200K. As I pointed out in the other thread blue light puts out almost twice as much energy red light. And lets not forget what PAR means Photosynthetically Available Radiation. That is the radiation that they can use and then there is PUR, Photosynthetically Usable Radiation and there is PS, Photosynthetically Stored Radiation

Calfo made an interesting point. He believes that light supplies only up to 15% of the nutritional.

This is nonsense. Calfo seems to have missed the bazillion studies that say otherwise, often reported as P-R or CZAR. Some corals can get as high as the high 90's % of their needs just on light. And if corals and anemones did not mucate they could get over 100 % of their needs from light.

So obviously, growth studies are a bit difficult as I would assume the P-max varies from coral to coral. I wonder if there are any P-max values out there for various corals? Also, isn't P-max measured by O2 respiration .


And for you ref. I have.Many studies done, but none on bulbs. Does it make a dif , PAR is PAR be it bulb or sun.

Coral Reef Ecology, Y.I. Sorokin.......gets very deep into the subject on ( P:R) Photosynthetic Respiration Rates

Ecosystems of the World; Vol. 25 Coral Reefs, Z. Dubinsky.........as does this

Life and Death of Coral Reefs, C.Birkland

Reef Evolution.R. Wood

The Ecology of the Indonesian Seas; Parts 1 & 2, T. Tomascir

Cycles of Essential Elements, L. Pomeroy.....early uncorrected studies on P:R

A Functional Biology of Anemones, J. Shick.............here studies on anemones and this guy is the expert on the subject of P:R for anemones.

Yes they are species dependent, reef dependent, even dependant on dif parts of the coral.

so PAR rating is that, intensity of the actual light spectrum being lumens.

NO ! Lumens is a human light measurement, it does not see blue or red light very well, so it is a false or misleading measurement. PAR is measured in Einstein's

I find that hard to believe and doubt if any of us is going to try it..

Yes, TG is is bascially nonsense.

Scott see Mike's other posts, and read all those links. Have to go to work be back for a look later.

Also, have you read Eric's book and read this;


http://reefkeeping.com/issues/2003-11/eb/index.htm
 

ScottT1980

Well-Known Member
Thanks for joining Boomer and thanks for the references...

I have a lot of reading to do on the subject so if I disappear for a day, don't think I have given up or forgotten.

Take er easy
Scott T.
 

EdgeKrusher

Member
I just finished reading the interview with Dana Riddle. He states that Actinics don't actually do anything for the aquarium other than asthetics. I thought they helped the corals fluoresce.
He also mentioned that he noticed greater colors and coral growth under 6500K lights, compared to 10000K and even 20000K.

Now the question I have is how do we know the PAR of a particular brand of bulb? Not all of us can afford, or need a spectroradiometer. Do any of the companies give the PAR value of thier bulb? This is a new concept, and is not the standard, but maybe some companies are catching on.
So does any of this PAR and Kelvin stuff apply to VHO and PC lighting? I only ask this becuase all the test results, and all the experiments seem to be carried out on only MH lights.

Thanks

EK
 

Scooterman

Active Member
Ahh, Einstein's, I stand corrected.
Blue light as compared to Reds, there is a frequency difference that makes them so different, Thinking out loud here but red lights are at higher frequencies thus fading much quicker, kinda like microwaves, the frequency is so high that you could point the megaton or klystron oscillator a foot away and get no ill effect! Thoughts out loud here, sorry.
 

ScottT1980

Well-Known Member
THats kind of where I am at EK. I am really starting to question my purchase of 2 actinics and 2 50/50s for my aquarium. Luckily, 220 W of "good" light are still moderatly sufficient on a 55 gallon with no SPS but I think I might have been better off with my initial setup of 1 actinic, 1 50/50, and 2 aquasuns. I would rather get good growth and have tolerable aesthetics than get reduced growth and a bit more pleasing aesthetics (but that is just my personal opinion).

Take er easy
Scott T.
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Of course, lets not try to exaggerate, when we say K has no effect on growth. I believe I said as long as it is a reasonable K.
Hey I better not get any care packages on my door step now:p . Boomer I have not read nor was I refering to any post by you. I was just tryng to point out that Bulb K ratings do make a difference, so I plead innocence:) .
Folks go to our library and look under the lighting section. thier should be a few articles by Sanjay. His articles are on testing that he has done a large varity of bulbs in the reef hobby. they should have all the par ratings and wave length graphs available. this will probibly answer a few questions so far. Take a peek at them and then lets get a bit deeper.


Mike
 

Cougra

Well-Known Member
Blue light as compared to Reds, there is a frequency difference that makes them so different, Thinking out loud here but red lights are at higher frequencies thus fading much quicker, kinda like microwaves, the frequency is so high that you could point the megaton or klystron oscillator a foot away and get no ill effect! Thoughts out loud here, sorry.

Just to clarify:
Blue light has a shorter wavelength but higher frequency then red light

The shorter wavelength allows the blue light to move between water molecules more before hitting an obstical (water molecules) there by penetrating deeper in the oceans.

Red light has a longer wavelength but lower frequency.
 

RogueCorps

Member
Originally posted by Boomer
Calfo made an interesting point. He believes that light supplies only up to 15% of the nutritional.

This is nonsense. Calfo seems to have missed the bazillion studies that say otherwise, often reported as P-R or CZAR. Some corals can get as high as the high 90's % of their needs just on light. And if corals and anemones did not mucate they could get over 100 % of their needs from light.

I think the quote is just missing the intent of his statement. Calfo's discussion was about using invertabrate reproduction strategically for benefit in specific systems. For instance, using specific sized mediums for promoting amphipod or copepod populations depending on the feeding polyp sizes of the corals that you keep.

Part of the point that he was making, that I've also heard from others, is the fact that corals have the greatest body percentage devoted to food capture of all animals, and that deficiencies in light can be replaced by food. Basically a coral covered with polyps is lots of tentacles and mouths, meant to capture food and eat. It just makes sense based on their body structure.

He noted this in contrast to the nutrient starved tanks of the 80s, and also to hobbyists who are over-obsessively dependant on light... running tons of 400 watters... even 1000 watters... He noted one hobbyist who is experiencing good growth and colors under 175mh. There is also "brooklynjohnny" on nano-reef.com who's got acros and clams in a nano tank under PCs I believe. The difference noted in these systems is feeding.

-Rogue :)
 
one thing about actinics....many say they are only for aesthetics as was stated earlier....

i'm sure i'm not the only one to notice that my soft corals (zo's, shrooms, star polyps) stay open with only the actinic on....however, maybe they're not getting any nutritional benefit from the actinic but they're open, ya know?

don't know a lot about lps or sps with reagrds to actinic, but i can say i sure love the actinic color it produces!
another thing is my mandarins only spawn during the late actinic cycle....now maybe that's related to their own bio-rhythms knowing the tanks photoperiod, maybe not....but i'll keep my actinics!!
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Part of the point that he was making, that I've also heard from others, is the fact that corals have the greatest body percentage devoted to food capture of all animals, and that deficiencies in light can be replaced by food. Basically a coral covered with polyps is lots of tentacles and mouths, meant to capture food and eat. It just makes sense based on their body structure
RC thats not really right at all. it has to do with thier body structure, but he is missing a few big points. Take sps for example, lots of mouths and polyp tentacles, but they are not designed properly for the capture of prey. SPS nemacyst (which are what most corals use to capture prey) have no barbs, thus they are ineffective, you add that to the ammount of energy required to fire off these namacysts and that source of food capture does not get used. To off set this the SS type coral has a highly evolved electron transfer sytem, to transfer light photons to reaction centers where it is converted to atp and others, from thier its food, thus up to 98 % of its food source is light. Saying that any coral only gets 15% of its food from light he must be talking about some type of cave dweeling corals. Saying that if they dont get it from here they will get it via a different way is a bit misleading. they can compensate a bit, but they live in the areas they live in for a reason and have spent thousands of years evolving to take advantage of each of thier particular enviroments.

MIke
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
LaquitaWilliams I dont think that atenics are just for looks. I have seen them grow to many corals to agree with that statement made by dana. You can not look at a coral polyps opening or closing for any signs of good or bad. the polyp of a coral is used in to many different thing. Its used for offence/defence/reproduction/food gathering/light gather/sensoring and so on.

Mike
 

RogueCorps

Member
Hey Mo!

Well, I've heard similar info from Toonen as well (you're other good pal) that corals are built to feed. He made another point that most polyp extension is at night, and is recessed during the day. Doesn't it make more sense that if an animal were trying to maximize it's surface area for photosynthesis that it would extend under sunlight and not receed? Hmm...

-Rogue :)
 

EdgeKrusher

Member
I wasn't saying to get rid of your Actinics at all. I like how they make a tank look. I'm just saying that what I read stated that they don't serve much of a purpose other than asthetics. Now I haven't read anything scientific about the effects of Actinics on corals so there's no telling how much truth there is to that statement. Hopefully when Dana complete's more of his experiments they will clarify alot of things.

Peace

EK
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
HIya RC, nope not at all my friend. Corals extend thier polyps at night for a variety of reason. the main one is that most preditors are asleep and thus wont eat thier polyps. Polyps are not the only place a coral has zoox, the zoox is all over the corals. Hmmmm back..hehehe

Edge I was refering to Danas statement. I do believe that actenics do provide lighting that a coral can use, just not alot of it.



Mike
 
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