reefrunner
Contributing Member
Someone told me excessive nitrAtes could stall a cycle. Has anyone heard of this? Agree, disagree?
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Tank won't cycle
- Thread starter reefrunner
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oneate7
Member
I have heard of excessive nitrAtes stalling a cycle, but never at the ammonia level per se... always at the nitrIte level (i.e. nitrItes won't go down). The nitrItes then inhibit the ability of bacteria breaking down the ammonia, resulting in a stalled cycle. The fact that you're not seeing nitrItes makes me think that this isn't the case.
After doing some more research, the only thing that (sort of) makes sense is that additional, heterotrophic, bacteria are converting the excessive nitrAtes back into nitrItes and ultimately ammonia. Cyanobacteria is an example of heterotrophic bacteria that is capable of reversing the nitrification process in the aquarium (apparently... this is news to me. Google cyanobacteria nitrofixation). The only thing that I can think of is that ~.5ppm is the point at which the autotrophic bacteria (nitrosomona and nitrobacter) and the heterotorophic bacteria (cyanobacteria) reach an equilbrium in their ability to process ammonia and nitrAte respectively.
Even in that case, I would expect that you would see nitrItes on your test... so I still don't know that that explains it. I should mention that PH levels seem to effect the ability of the heterotrophic bacteria to do their thing as well with a low PH being beneficial to them.
In either case, a good way to test is to do a big water change to reduce the nitrAtes in the tank. Also check your PH... if it's low, dose some buffer or baking soda and see if that helps get things back into the right balance. If your ammonia drops after either of those... then I guess that was your problem! lol
Hope that helps... I should probably get back to work
.
Edited to Add: Came across this little nugget as well. Also related to low PH -
The final form of inorganic nitrogen common in aquariums is the ammonium ion. Ammonium is formed when ammonia picks up an extra hydrogen molecule, converting the NH3 (ammonia) to NH4+ (ammonium ion). Ammonium is non-toxic and is more prevalent at a low pH (this will be discussed in more detail in the Nitrification and Water Chemistry section). Ammonium will often catch another molecule to form an ammonium salt. Many hobbyist grade ammonia test kits do not distinguish between ammonia and ammonium, and may give a false high reading for ammonia. This is why a tank that has been in service for a long period of time without a water change may show an ammonia reading, but the fish are still alive. The water has become acidic due to the lack of buffering capacity and the resulting ammonium is falsely reading as ammonia.
After doing some more research, the only thing that (sort of) makes sense is that additional, heterotrophic, bacteria are converting the excessive nitrAtes back into nitrItes and ultimately ammonia. Cyanobacteria is an example of heterotrophic bacteria that is capable of reversing the nitrification process in the aquarium (apparently... this is news to me. Google cyanobacteria nitrofixation). The only thing that I can think of is that ~.5ppm is the point at which the autotrophic bacteria (nitrosomona and nitrobacter) and the heterotorophic bacteria (cyanobacteria) reach an equilbrium in their ability to process ammonia and nitrAte respectively.
Even in that case, I would expect that you would see nitrItes on your test... so I still don't know that that explains it. I should mention that PH levels seem to effect the ability of the heterotrophic bacteria to do their thing as well with a low PH being beneficial to them.
In either case, a good way to test is to do a big water change to reduce the nitrAtes in the tank. Also check your PH... if it's low, dose some buffer or baking soda and see if that helps get things back into the right balance. If your ammonia drops after either of those... then I guess that was your problem! lol
Hope that helps... I should probably get back to work
.Edited to Add: Came across this little nugget as well. Also related to low PH -
The final form of inorganic nitrogen common in aquariums is the ammonium ion. Ammonium is formed when ammonia picks up an extra hydrogen molecule, converting the NH3 (ammonia) to NH4+ (ammonium ion). Ammonium is non-toxic and is more prevalent at a low pH (this will be discussed in more detail in the Nitrification and Water Chemistry section). Ammonium will often catch another molecule to form an ammonium salt. Many hobbyist grade ammonia test kits do not distinguish between ammonia and ammonium, and may give a false high reading for ammonia. This is why a tank that has been in service for a long period of time without a water change may show an ammonia reading, but the fish are still alive. The water has become acidic due to the lack of buffering capacity and the resulting ammonium is falsely reading as ammonia.
reefrunner
Contributing Member
oneate7 said:I have heard of excessive nitrAtes stalling a cycle, but never at the ammonia level per se... always at the nitrIte level (i.e. nitrItes won't go down). The nitrItes then inhibit the ability of bacteria breaking down the ammonia, resulting in a stalled cycle. The fact that you're not seeing nitrItes makes me think that this isn't the case.
After doing some more research, the only thing that (sort of) makes sense is that additional, heterotrophic, bacteria are converting the excessive nitrAtes back into nitrItes and ultimately ammonia. Cyanobacteria is an example of heterotrophic bacteria that is capable of reversing the nitrification process in the aquarium (apparently... this is news to me. Google cyanobacteria nitrofixation). The only thing that I can think of is that ~.5ppm is the point at which the autotrophic bacteria (nitrosomona and nitrobacter) and the heterotorophic bacteria (cyanobacteria) reach an equilbrium in their ability to process ammonia and nitrAte respectively.
Even in that case, I would expect that you would see nitrItes on your test... so I still don't know that that explains it. I should mention that PH levels seem to effect the ability of the heterotrophic bacteria to do their thing as well with a low PH being beneficial to them.
In either case, a good way to test is to do a big water change to reduce the nitrAtes in the tank. Also check your PH... if it's low, dose some buffer or baking soda and see if that helps get things back into the right balance. If your ammonia drops after either of those... then I guess that was your problem! lol
Hope that helps... I should probably get back to work
Edited to Add: Came across this little nugget as well. Also related to low PH -
The final form of inorganic nitrogen common in aquariums is the ammonium ion. Ammonium is formed when ammonia picks up an extra hydrogen molecule, converting the NH3 (ammonia) to NH4+ (ammonium ion). Ammonium is non-toxic and is more prevalent at a low pH (this will be discussed in more detail in the Nitrification and Water Chemistry section). Ammonium will often catch another molecule to form an ammonium salt. Many hobbyist grade ammonia test kits do not distinguish between ammonia and ammonium, and may give a false high reading for ammonia. This is why a tank that has been in service for a long period of time without a water change may show an ammonia reading, but the fish are still alive. The water has become acidic due to the lack of buffering capacity and the resulting ammonium is falsely reading as ammonia.
Thanks, I have not been posting the nitrite levels, because I've been waiting for ammonia to go to 0, but nitrites are approx 1ppm steady, no matter how much ammonia has been converted and nitrates are >100ppm.
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reefrunner
Contributing Member
Ammonia still .5, nitrites still 1ppm and ph is 7.8-8.0
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reefrunner
Contributing Member
oneate7 said:Well, maybe what I posted earlier is accurate then? Who knows
I'm preparing water now. Probably do it tomorrow.
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reefrunner
Contributing Member
Changed ten gallons, got some more mixing for another change tomorrow.
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reefrunner
Contributing Member
I have done 3 10 gallon water changes over the last three days (20 gallon tank). Ammonia is still at .5ppm, nitrite has gone down to .5 and nitrates are now about 180ppm which means after 3 50% water changes they started at 1440ppm. That's a lot of nitrate.
My plan is to continue the water changes daily (today I'm going to attempt to clean the sand bed in the hob refugium and remove the rocks and vacuum under and behind) until the nitrates are very low.
Any thoughts?
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My plan is to continue the water changes daily (today I'm going to attempt to clean the sand bed in the hob refugium and remove the rocks and vacuum under and behind) until the nitrates are very low.
Any thoughts?
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I can't think of a better course of action. I'd keep doing the large water changes until it's under control.
Your test results still leave me scratching my head. I thought I had heard somewhere that very high nitrates can cause false results for nitrites or ammonia, but after searching, I must be confusing it with something else, I can't find anything about it.
2 or 3 more 50% should put you in a more reasonable range, and getting closer to acceptable.
Your test results still leave me scratching my head. I thought I had heard somewhere that very high nitrates can cause false results for nitrites or ammonia, but after searching, I must be confusing it with something else, I can't find anything about it.
2 or 3 more 50% should put you in a more reasonable range, and getting closer to acceptable.
reefrunner
Contributing Member
One thing I find curious is that even with these conditions, I have not had an algae outbreak, I have had a few days worth of diatoms, but with nitrates like that (and me running the actinics 12 hours per day) I would have expected some other issues, I have actually grown new coralline algae.
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reefrunner
Contributing Member
I changed approx. 13 - 14 gallons last night, cleaning the sand in the fuge and removed all the rock and cleaned the sand under and behind the rock. I went to the LFS today, took a water sample and the told me, ammonia was good, nitrites were elevated (they did not give numbers but I looked at the nitrite and the scale they were using and it was .2ppm) ph was 8.0. When I told the LFS owner I was doing water changes he told me each water change retarded the cycle by two weeks. I really wish someone would open another shop and carry saltwater fish and supplies. I was going to buy my qt tank and glass tops from him, instead he got me irritated enough to just leave. I realize there is a debate on whether water changes will slow a cycle (I'm in the camp that it doesn't), but really...after 3 months of waiting, seems like its time to shake things up, rather than spout the dogma from 10 years ago.
I came home, tested and got
Salinity 35ppt
Ammonia < .5 but not quite .25ppm
Nitrite < .5 but not quite .25
Ph 8.0
Nitrate 80ppm
My bucket of freshly mixed salt reads
Salinity 35ppt
Ammonia ~ .25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm
Ph 8.0
My plans are to continue 50% water changes until the nitrates hit pretty close to 0 and see where we're at. Once the nitrates are lower I am going to use the water from one of the 10g water changes to set up my quarantine and start cycling it, I sure hope that goes better than this one.
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I came home, tested and got
Salinity 35ppt
Ammonia < .5 but not quite .25ppm
Nitrite < .5 but not quite .25
Ph 8.0
Nitrate 80ppm
My bucket of freshly mixed salt reads
Salinity 35ppt
Ammonia ~ .25ppm
Nitrite 0ppm
Nitrate 0ppm
Ph 8.0
My plans are to continue 50% water changes until the nitrates hit pretty close to 0 and see where we're at. Once the nitrates are lower I am going to use the water from one of the 10g water changes to set up my quarantine and start cycling it, I sure hope that goes better than this one.
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oneate7
Member
I really wish one of us thought to have you test your source water A LOT sooner.
I disagree with the source water being a problem. You were dosing to 4ppm ammonia anyway before right? Doing a water change with .25ppm ammonia shouldn't make a difference... that amount should be cleared up no problem, assuming the cycle is working.
I know that you've said that you're using multiple test kits... have you used multiple people to read your test results? Is it possible that you're either interpreting the results incorrectly or can't distinguish between the colors properly. The fact that your LFS tested the same water and got (I assume) 0 on ammonia (which is what we're expecting) points to either your tests, testing methodology, or ability to properly read the tests. I think I read that you have the API test kit... just for kicks, try testing with that and having an innocent bystander read the results. Follow the directions to the letter and don't tell them what you've been reading. See what they say.
I disagree with the source water being a problem. You were dosing to 4ppm ammonia anyway before right? Doing a water change with .25ppm ammonia shouldn't make a difference... that amount should be cleared up no problem, assuming the cycle is working.
I know that you've said that you're using multiple test kits... have you used multiple people to read your test results? Is it possible that you're either interpreting the results incorrectly or can't distinguish between the colors properly. The fact that your LFS tested the same water and got (I assume) 0 on ammonia (which is what we're expecting) points to either your tests, testing methodology, or ability to properly read the tests. I think I read that you have the API test kit... just for kicks, try testing with that and having an innocent bystander read the results. Follow the directions to the letter and don't tell them what you've been reading. See what they say.
reefrunner
Contributing Member
I realize it seems odd, but the RO/DI tests 0 ammonia, and after reading this article it doesn't seem odd that new salt water tests positive for ammonia. It may be much less than .25 but that's the lowest color on the chart. I have considered it might be the bucket I use to mix the water, but after putting RO/DI water in there and aerating it for several hours, it tested 0 for ammonia. It is definitely in the salt, and not that uncommon. While it may play a small part in my issue, it goes deeper, because the new water test 0 for nitrite, and my tank can mineralized 4ppm of ammonia down to .5ppm, so . 25 in the salt mix isn't much of anything.
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BLADEYAMAHA
Well-Known Member
Do you have a carbon reactor, if not, I'd start.