Tank Bred thoughts, and philosophical questions

[meandean45]

Hello All!
I've been struggling with some thoughts, observations and questions about tank BRED (as opposed to "raised") FISH (NOT corals). I'm wondering if anyone else has concerns as well.
I don't mean to start an arguement, although I'm fairly sure that some strong opinions will be voiced, but I'm not entirely sure that tank bred fish are truly "good" for our hobby. (I can hear the pistols being cocked already, but please don't shoot me just yet!)
I've noticed that tank bred Clownfish don't seem to host in Anemones nearly as easily as wild caught Clowns do. From what information I can gather, Tank bred Clowns are not exposed to Anemones as EGGS or as FRY. I've seen the pictures and read the text that Clowns nip at the Anemone to keep it from "Stinging" the Eggs, but I find that my Clowns only nip the Anemone back until their eggs are laid, and then they allow the Anemone to cover the eggs.(YES, their eggs DO hatch) Does anyone else out there think (as I do) that the lack of Anemones in Commercial breeders tanks could be the cause of this problem?
My other question involving tank breeding involves "Selective Breeding". Already I'm begining to see un-natural "Morphs" in tank bred Clowns (All of you people with "Black Perculas" please forgive me), different colors, abnormal color patterns, and mis-shapen fish. This type of breeding has given the freshwater hobby many different types of fish, but it has also caused some VERY hardy fish (wild Carp can practically live in a "mudpuddle") to become very delicate and hard to keep. My question is "do we want to do this in the Marine Reef hobby?"
AGAIN, I don't want to start an arguement, but I would really enjoy some THOUGHTFUL DEBATE on these questions. Thanks for any and all thoughts on the matter

 

[mps9506]

Hello All!
I've been struggling with some thoughts, observations and questions about tank BRED (as opposed to "raised") FISH (NOT corals). I'm wondering if anyone else has concerns as well.
I don't mean to start an arguement, although I'm fairly sure that some strong opinions will be voiced, but I'm not entirely sure that tank bred fish are truly "good" for our hobby. (I can hear the pistols being cocked already, but please don't shoot me just yet!)
I've noticed that tank bred Clownfish don't seem to host in Anemones nearly as easily as wild caught Clowns do. From what information I can gather, Tank bred Clowns are not exposed to Anemones as EGGS or as FRY. I've seen the pictures and read the text that Clowns nip at the Anemone to keep it from "Stinging" the Eggs, but I find that my Clowns only nip the Anemone back until their eggs are laid, and then they allow the Anemone to cover the eggs.(YES, their eggs DO hatch) Does anyone else out there think (as I do) that the lack of Anemones in Commercial breeders tanks could be the cause of this problem?
My other question involving tank breeding involves "Selective Breeding". Already I'm begining to see un-natural "Morphs" in tank bred Clowns (All of you people with "Black Perculas" please forgive me), different colors, abnormal color patterns, and mis-shapen fish. This type of breeding has given the freshwater hobby many different types of fish, but it has also caused some VERY hardy fish (wild Carp can practically live in a "mudpuddle") to become very delicate and hard to keep. My question is "do we want to do this in the Marine Reef hobby?"
AGAIN, I don't want to start an arguement, but I would really enjoy some THOUGHTFUL DEBATE on these questions. Thanks for any and all thoughts on the matter

Well as always there are many sides to this issue. First the majority of folks that purchase clownfish IME do not keep anemones, or at least do not have the equipment nor the experience to house anemones. Does this mean they should be excluded from keeping clownfish? I find tank raised clowns to be the ideal fish for my customers as they are generally very hardy and easy to feed, and the larger clowns such as tomatoes and marroon clowns are ideal fish only tank canidates as they mix well with most other fish either in a reef or aggresive tank. Also housing anemones in brood tanks at a place like ORA or cquest would drasitcally increase the costs involved with raising these fish and thus increase the price tag of the fish. They are already competeing with dirt cheap wild caught fish.

The second point you raise is very interesting. I bred Angels, and dwarf cichlids for a long time, and have many friends that breed livebearers and discus. Your point that selective breeding makes fish less hardy can also go the other way. Most of my tank raised angels are extremely hardy compared to their wild captured cousins. They do fine in neutral pH, eat flake food, etc. Where as the wild caught need to be feed frozen, need a low pH etc.
However your point is true that selective breeding can lead to an extremely difficult to keep fish. Inbreeding is also a concern as it can lead to all kinds of problems in the genetic diversity in the brood stock.

 

[Charlie97L]

you make some good points, and i totally understand where you are coming from with your arguments.

i'll have to disagree with you on a few of them.

FW notwithstanding... it's like comparing apples to oranges. tank bred marine animals are always hardier than their wild caught relatives. 100% of the time. this has been proven, time and time again. seahorses, clowns, etc. all hardier. captive breeding of seahorses and training them to eat frozen from birth has led to them being relatively moderate animals to keep, as opposed to nearly impossible. this is mostly due to the fact that the capture/transport process is so traumatic, for all marine animals. aquacultured corals are also a lot hardier and adapt to tank life much better.

second, while the morphs are a cause for concern, I guess, it does attract people to buy tank bred, as opposed to captured fish, which is ALWAYS a good thing, conservation wise. and there will be no shortage, ever of standard clowns. to be quite honest, the best thing for the marine industry would be to move to 100% aquacultured... and let the reefs recover. and there are many places working on this... making progress every day.

as far as the anemones are concerned... i haven't read up on that... i do know that for captive raised clowns, the picture method has worked well. ie. tape a picture of a clown in an anemone to the tank, and the clown will imitate it. but i know many many people with tank bred clowns that have them hosting. i mean, it's really a personal preference when it comes down to it. even wild caught clowns aren't guaranteed to host. sometimes they just don't.

 

[meandean45]

Aha a bite!
firstly, thank you Mike! Secondly, I don't presume to stop anyone from keeping Clowns or any other fish that they like, with or without Anemones. The Black percula is already with us, and seems to be well recieved, but I guess that my real question should be that if the creatures that we keep are the product of thousands of years of natural selection, should we alter that?
As a dealer, you are in a position to sell what you will, and so, if you (and other dealers) decide to only sell tank bred fish, cheaper wild caughts could concievably become a "thing of the past", myself, I'm surprised that wild caughts are still on the market.
The Carp is quite hardy, but some of the Goldfish variations can be EXTREMELY delicate (Bubble-eye, Celestial) I'll grant you the Angelfish, but wild Discus can't possibly see the water conditions that most people find necessary to keep them.
Thanks again!
meandean45

 

[mps9506]

Aha a bite!
firstly, thank you Mike! Secondly, I don't presume to stop anyone from keeping Clowns or any other fish that they like, with or without Anemones. The Black percula is already with us, and seems to be well recieved, but I guess that my real question should be that if the creatures that we keep are the product of thousands of years of natural selection, should we alter that?
As a dealer, you are in a position to sell what you will, and so, if you (and other dealers) decide to only sell tank bred fish, cheaper wild caughts could concievably become a "thing of the past", myself, I'm surprised that wild caughts are still on the market.

Technically the black perc is a wild morph.
Second I wouldn't really call captive breeding projects altering natural selection as these fish are not being let go into the wild. It's like saying breeding your pet dogs are messing with natural selection.
The ethical issues are simply is it really ok for us to breed clownfish that are short a couple of vertabrae or missing fin rays? don't know the answer, but these guys are going to get bred so I don't know if we really need an answer
BTW, I can tell you one reason wild caughts will remain on the market: price.
I'm competing with a new petco that moved into town that are selling "tank raised" percs (that are all dropping like flies from some type of infection) for $9 each. Don't know where the hell they make money from on that as I purchase my ORA clowns for that much. My wild caught clowns cost about $3-$4. I can compete by selling those if they come in healthy of course. Thanksfully most of my custoemrs that tried out the cheap fish ended up coming back to me anyways after their fish died.

Anyways I'm getting off track....

BTW is that an eclectus in your avatar?

 

[Warnberg]

I'm curious, lets say a hobbiest purchases 2 tank raised clowns from their LFS, what do you believe the chances are that these 2 individuals are from the same parents? and do you think that if they are from the same parents would that have any effect on their potential to breed? If this inbreeding is repeated enough times do you think there will be issues in the future with tank raised clowns?

 

[reefjitsu]

I've noticed that tank bred Clownfish don't seem to host in Anemones nearly as easily as wild caught Clowns do. From what information I can gather, Tank bred Clowns are not exposed to Anemones as EGGS or as FRY. I've seen the pictures and read the text that Clowns nip at the Anemone to keep it from "Stinging" the Eggs, but I find that my Clowns only nip the Anemone back until their eggs are laid, and then they allow the Anemone to cover the eggs.(YES, their eggs DO hatch) Does anyone else out there think (as I do) that the lack of Anemones in Commercial breeders tanks could be the cause of this problem?

I think that this is probably a good thing, because my personal feeling is that keeping anemones should be discouraged amongst the general population and members of this hobby. If I had my way, anemones would be kept by very experienced and advanced hobbyists only. Anemones would be so rare in this hobby that you would almost never see them in the local fish store. Of course, this is a tale for another thread.

I have to disagree that captive breeding makes fish less hardy. In nearly every example I know of the opposite is true. You mentioned goldfish and discus: Goldfish and koi are still very hardy, I am not sure why you call them delicate. Many of them can be released into the wild and live just fine. In fact, I know of a couple small lakes around the city where I grew up that you can go and catch "fancy" breeds of goldfish on a hook and line. As for discus, the captive bred fish are waaaaaaaaay hardier than their wild caught relatives. Discus were once one of the most demanding of fish in terms of water conditions, especially if you wanted to breed. Nowadays, they are becoming common in pet shops and are easily kept by even moderate experience hobbyists.

I'm curious, lets say a hobbiest purchases 2 tank raised clowns from their LFS, what do you believe the chances are that these 2 individuals are from the same parents? and do you think that if they are from the same parents would that have any effect on their potential to breed? If this inbreeding is repeated enough times do you think there will be issues in the future with tank raised clowns?

Inbreeding isn't usually as much of a problem for other species as it is for humans. It is a concern though and should be monitored. The inbreeding shoudn't be a problem because most people aren't raising the fry, as well they shouldn't. One of the worst things that can happen to a species is overbreeding by the masses. If you are breeding a species then you should be serious with it. What does "being serious with it" mean? It means selecting quality breeding stock. Only the best of the best should be bred together, which means more than picking the best two fish at the local fish stores. In additon, offspring should be culled to remove all the undesirables. Often it is these culled fish that are offered for sale in pet shops. The rules of captive and selective breeding go on and on and are well established so I will not rattle on about them. I will say, that willy-nilly breeding by everyone and his brother is the worst thing that can happen to a species or breed. If you don't believe me look at dogs. Dog breeds have been degrading for decades now. Genetic disorders from poor breedings are rampant, many breeds are becoming caricatures of their former selves. Why? Overbreeding, non-selective breeding, un-informed breeding etc.

 

[mps9506]

I'm curious, lets say a hobbiest purchases 2 tank raised clowns from their LFS, what do you believe the chances are that these 2 individuals are from the same parents? and do you think that if they are from the same parents would that have any effect on their potential to breed? If this inbreeding is repeated enough times do you think there will be issues in the future with tank raised clowns?

Chances are pretty good that the clowns are from the same parents if you purchased them at the same time.
But like Reefjitsu said, it really isn't a problem unless the people selling captive raised clowns are inbreeding the fish for many generations. I would be suprised if that happened as it would probably result in lower fecundidty rates as well as a plethora of other problems that would easily be thwarted by increase the genetic diversity in the broodstock by adding a few wild caught clowns.

 

[Elmo18]

Being a clownfish breeder myself (and soon to be other species.... )I will give my thoughts on this.

As a breeder, I prefer to form broodstock pairs using wild-caught clowns. This is not to say that I am not an eco-friendly consumer. I prefer the term "Captive Bred" more so than "Tank-Raised". Anything can be tank-raised, so that term is ambiguous. Captive Bred on the other hand, suggests that the animal has never seen the ocean, other than tank environments.

Why do some breeders choose to get wild-caught broodstock? The obvious reason is for the gene pool. As already stated, gene pools get 'shallower' with each passing generation inbreeding with another. With clownfishes this isn't so much of a concern, since it seems that not a lot of mutations and such occur before F10 generations. Therefore, many breeders will use Captive Bred broodstock for their pairs, which tend to have fry that is easier to care for. There is nothing wrong with this.

What I get really mad about is when breeders sell clowns that don't even look like clowns (i.e. bulldog faces, bad shape, etc). As a breeder, I cull when I see it fit (i.e. kill a clownfish for the sake of its species). It is not to say I don't love my clowns....or that I'm an animal killer. I do this so that the species genetic pool will not be shallower by putting out a specimen that is not 'good enough' or 'perfect enough'.

And the debate goes on....but I try to just stick with what I believe in...which is to cull when needed, and only to sell clownfish of great health and form.

Best,
Ilham

 

[meandean45]

Hello Again!
Firstly, i'd like to thank everyone for their posts and input AND for not shooting me !!!
mps9506 (Mike), I guess that you hit the nail squarely on the head with your comment that people WILL breed these fish regardless of what we think or say. I'm afraid that I must agree:smirk: ,But I'm not really sure that I'm happy about it. The wild caught percula thing that you mention kind of goes hand in hand with your other observation, "those whose sole motivation is sales or profit will do whatever they want/can to make a buck, regardless of the outcome. Glad to hear that your' customers came back after the Petco fish died, but it kinda sucks that they left you in the first place. Have you thought about charging them double since they returned:laughroll ??!!! It really is too bad that not everyone in this hobby will take the high road and do the right thing. BTW, that comment that I made makes it sound like you LFS are in control, which I know isn't true. It's the customers that are looking for the $5.00 Clownfish that decide who sells live caught and who can sell Tank bred, Sorry about that:smck:
And finally, Yes my avitar is a picture of Sadie Mae, a female (obvious to you and me) Solomon Islands Eclectus. She is about 5 years old and my best (some people would tell you ONLY) friend .

 

[mps9506]

BTW, that comment that I made makes it sound like you LFS are in control, which I know isn't true. It's the customers that are looking for the $5.00 Clownfish that decide who sells live caught and who can sell Tank bred

Ain't that the truth...


And the solomon island eclectus has to be the one bird I would actually consider keeping, however never would as I don't have the time for such a beautiful creature.

 

[meandean45]

Being a clownfish breeder myself (and soon to be other species.... )I will give my thoughts on this.

As a breeder, I prefer to form broodstock pairs using wild-caught clowns. This is not to say that I am not an eco-friendly consumer. I prefer the term "Captive Bred" more so than "Tank-Raised". Anything can be tank-raised, so that term is ambiguous. Captive Bred on the other hand, suggests that the animal has never seen the ocean, other than tank environments.

Why do some breeders choose to get wild-caught broodstock? The obvious reason is for the gene pool. As already stated, gene pools get 'shallower' with each passing generation inbreeding with another. With clownfishes this isn't so much of a concern, since it seems that not a lot of mutations and such occur before F10 generations. Therefore, many breeders will use Captive Bred broodstock for their pairs, which tend to have fry that is easier to care for. There is nothing wrong with this.

What I get really mad about is when breeders sell clowns that don't even look like clowns (i.e. bulldog faces, bad shape, etc). As a breeder, I cull when I see it fit (i.e. kill a clownfish for the sake of its species). It is not to say I don't love my clowns....or that I'm an animal killer. I do this so that the species genetic pool will not be shallower by putting out a specimen that is not 'good enough' or 'perfect enough'.

And the debate goes on....but I try to just stick with what I believe in...which is to cull when needed, and only to sell clownfish of great health and form.

Best,
Ilham

Wow! Thanks for this . I really didn't expect to get a response from any Breeders, but yours' is most welcome!
I fully agree that wild caught Brood Stock are the way for Breeders to go (the gene pool thing scares you and I more than some others I see), and I personally think that you're being an ecological good citizen by keeping the gene pool deep with fresh Brood Stock.
Culling! :faces: :angel3: I'm nearly bowled over! Iv'e seen so many poor specimens of Occelaris at my LFS since they started selling tank raised, that I now will spend quite some time eyeballing a Clown the way I used to with fancy Goldfish. Mis-shapen backs, incorrect color patterns, and missing fins seem to have become quite common, and could be prevented by responsible culling by breeders. You have my applause for doing the right thing.
So I've got to ask, Do you sell only locally, or do you ship nationwide? My Nephew recently opened a LFS, and I'd love to recommend you to him if you do!
Thanks once more!
Dean

 

[meandean45]

Time for a re-visit.
I see that we now have a name (Picasso Clowns!), and a higher price (!) for occelaris that show a Non-Typical color pattern! Lion-Headed Clowns anyone?, Celestials?, Bubble-Eyes? It looks like we are headed down the garden path of selective breeding. I guess that I'm the only one who finds this reprehensible (and unethical) but I just have to wonder how a group of hobbyists, so eager to "Save the Reefs" can so quickly and happily "Flush the Fish"? JMO.
Dean

 

[reefjitsu]

Look at it this way:
These color morphs have a advantage that may allow them to out-survive their wild counterparts. If the coral reefs disappear as predicted, these fish have found a way to survive by being attractive to humans.

 

[vdituri]

Look at it this way:
These color morphs have a advantage that may allow them to out-survive their wild counterparts. If the coral reefs disappear as predicted, these fish have found a way to survive by being attractive to humans.

Wow. That is indeed another way of looking at it. The ultimate (un)natural selection?

Petco is most likely paying just as much as the local retailer is, but a large corp like that can afford to sell clowns at a loss so that they can sell $500+ habitats and additives for the clown to live in. Its very common in retail.

Great thread by the way. Had no idea picasso clowns were a result of captive breeding.
Thanks for all the info people.

 

[kathywithbirds]

Look at it this way:
These color morphs have a advantage that may allow them to out-survive their wild counterparts. If the coral reefs disappear as predicted, these fish have found a way to survive by being attractive to humans.

Input from a beginner/bleeding heart: culling just sounds cruel!! Would you kill off a child with a birth defect? Or because he didn't have blond hair?
(Oh dear god this sounds like a church debate on abortion...)
I agree with reefjitsu, the "new," and perhaps "deformed" fish might find a happy home with someone like me, who doesn't know that his head is misshapen, but chose him for his lively personality and the fact that I do not have the equipment or experience for an anemone.
And I'm not inferring that Reefjitsu is advocating sloppy breeding en masse.

I have to hope there are enough breeders out there who have Ilham's sensibilities on responsible breeding, though I disagree with the whole culling thing!

We all do the best we can in most situations, and hopefully breeding marine fish and other species is one of them.

 

[kathywithbirds]

I notice no one has posted since my tirade on adopting the deformed clown.

 

[Kirblit]

I think that the culling is an important part of the breeders responsibility, that said I certainly don't like to think about it either. I think that in nature these fish that are malformed don't generally make it anyway because they don't have all of the tools to survive in the wild, and they would only exist in our aquariums because we have kept them alive. There was natural selection with humans as well, but we have found a way around that problem, technology. I can see both sides of this debate and believe that they are both somewhat correct, but there has to be a middle ground. Kathywithbirds I know how you feel about the culling, my wife is the same way with here freshwater tanks. She is always on the look out for the "gimpy" fish, and once she see's one she has to have it. So needless to say we have a housefull of "gimpy" fish that all seem to get around fine, but never really appear happy to me. I happen to be one of those people that put myself in their shoes and if I were like that, well, I wouldn't want to be like that.

I think that everyone has their own opinion on the subject of captive breeding. I think that it's a great thing for the hobby, and for the reef in general. I think it's a matter of time before most fish in the hobby are captive bread and that will be great. I also believe that it will get out of control with all kinds of morphs just like the freshwater hobby, and it's up to us to choose whether to buy those fish or not. I just don't think that I would want some artificial breed in one of my tanks, it's not what we are trying to recreate in this hobby.

 

[kathywithbirds]

One has to define what "natural selection" is. On one hand, you have people who believe that natural selection is what would happen in the wild without man's interference. But I contend that's flawed reasoning. Man has influenced every part of the globe by his very existence (sorry to the women out there, I'm using the collective "man"), so who is to say what the earth would look like had man never existed?
We're trying to regulate fishing (hubby in the Coast Guard can attest to this), save the whales, find "extinct" species, save the rainforests, have created species like Catalina macaws and picasso clownfish, regulate our own propagation...
Where's the line? I'll call it fate, perhaps... lets say we nuke ourselves out of existence from our sheer stupidity (OK, vast simplification but bear with me) and there's more species that survive the apocalypse that were "created" by us or bred for certain characteristics than species that were "naturally" evolving. So who's to say that's not "natural selection"?

Let's call it the "It's a Wonderful Life" theory.

Sometime I'll expound on my dolphin and aliens theories.

BTW, just FYI, I believe that Catalinas are infertile.

And yes, I too have a house full of adopted creatures!

 

[reefjitsu]

If you consider humans to be just another part of the natural world, as I do, then nothing is really unnatural. Save of course any supernatural things that may or may not exist out there.