Summaryof filtration systems

NaH2O

Contributing Member
Great thread, Mike!

Szhttm, there are ways to keep a DSB "fresh", so it will have a lengthened life span, such as replacing part of the SB in a remote location...but I don't want to get into that here.

I have a question about the Starboard product that is being used more frequently. Here is a link provided by Maxx on another thread: Starboard. Would detritus build up underneath, causing future problems? I understand syphoning up the detritus, but without taking out all of the rock and removing the starboard, I'm not sure how any trapped detritus would be removed???

Hope this question was ok to put here???
 

Cosmic

Member
I think this is a great idea for a thread also, but like Mojo, I've never found it an easy task of putting it all together. Over the years, we have tried numerous methods to keep our tank's inhabitants alive. i think Mojo simply wants to go over the various means of reefkeeping, with the emphasis on the methods they used for filtration.

The very first of them all was actually the sand bed. Back in the early 1900's a guy was able to get sanddollars to breed after he tried using live sand from the ocean. That was a simple experiment with the "tank" being a mason jar, with a handful of sand and ocean water, changed daily.

The first "hobbyist" filter available for saltwater was the undergravel filter. This was a god-send at the time when it was nearly impossible to keep fish alive for long. It works by mechanical and biological filtration mainly, with chemical being added if needed. The crushed coral acted as a buffering agent, and also as a place for bacteria to colonize, just like in fresh water tanks. It also acted to catch large particles of waste which then would get siphoned out on a regular basis. Bacteria would thrive in the pocket of water under the plate, and the airstone both oxygenated the water and provided a means of drawing water through the gravel.

Cons of this method are consistent water changes to remove debris, as well as the need to rip up the UG filter plate when enough waste accumulated under it (which will inevitably happen). It also does nothing for breaking down nitrates, meaning alternate methods are needed to control this. It does not favor burrowing fish or many critters.

From there, we flocked over to power filters of all sorts. While these do great for freshwater fish, it's not the easiest in a marine environment. I'm also going to include canister filters, since they work ideally the same way as a PF, only hidden under the tank, and a bit more powerful. Powerfilters are a step up from UG filtration. They have the ability to trap waste on a pad instead of using the gravel bed. This enables the waste to be removed on a much easier basis, and allowed for a cleaner (healthier) environment. It still handled mechanical and biological filtration, but almost always adds Chemical (carbon) filtration as well. Some PF's started using grids or wheels to increase the amount of bacteria-driven filtration the filter can handle, but they still cannot achieve reduction of nitrates.

Pros include being small, quiet, and easily cleaned. Can handle nitrogenous waste, up to a point. Has mechanical and chemical filtration also.

Cannot handle nitrates, or have as much bacterial filtration as a substrate bed. Must replace cartidges on a frequent basis ($$). Must be cleaned regularly or diminishing returns result.

Then we move into the wet-dry filtration. This basically was an upgrade from the undergravel filter, but at the same time had some of the same downfalls. W/D's do nothing to help control nitrates, meaning denitrification is not coming full circle, and exportation is not being achieved optimally. The emphasis was put on aerobic bacteria to handle ammonia and nitrite. At the time, Nitrates were not suspected of being extremely hazardous.

The W/D allowed a bigger volume of water on the same size tank, which began to provide a bit of stability to our tanks. It also allowed us to start REMOVING items from our tank, and hiding them in the W/D. This was a main reason for the popularity of W/D's IMO.

Drawbacks are the inability to handle nitrates, meaning alternate methods are needed. Tended to be difficult to setup properly. Also fairly pricey compared to previous methods of filtration.

After this came the plenum and the DSB, both having benefits and drawbacks as well. In either case, we moved into being able to now handle the full denitrification process. Nitrates for the first time can be broken down to a gaseous state and exported. For this reason, I usually group these in the same category, even though they are distinctly different in thier own ways. Most of the benefits and drawbacks of these have been covered so far, so I'm going to skip these for now.

Then we move into alternate means of filtration, such as the infamous skimmer, algal filters, refugiums, xenia farms, mangrove sumps, etc.

These are mostly ways of adding the missing component to one of the above methods. In most cases, it's a means of nitrate and phosphate uptake, but it can also manage dissolved organics (DOM) or possibly even inorganic waste.

My fingers are starting to get a bit cramped, but there's so much more I can add. Too bad I can't type as fast as my brain thinks it :(
Take some of this into consideration, maybe ask a few resultant questions? Give me a little more direction and I can offer a ton more on the subject.

great thread Mojo!
Cos
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Alrighty now were cooking folks.
Scooterman what you just said is exactly why I want to do this. Thier is so much misinformation/opinion oriented info that new folks dont have a chance and to be honest alot of its is pretty intence. Another problem is that passion alot of the time gets in the way of facts. I truely believe that DSB's/plenums/bb system all can work well, but in order to work well they must be layed out by what the thinking behind it is (the concept). then couple that with the pros and cons and a person has a fighting chance with whatever system they choose.
Now a so called expert could write something up or even I could but it will be inherently skewed to that persons wants, or vision. I think that has been seen very clearly. But on RS we have alot of good reefers, some have been doing this for decades some just very knowledgable or experenced. If we could put this together as a colaboration, I dont think it could get any better then that. And lets make it about systems, not individual forms (as in skimming, biological, mechcanical) but more on DSD system, plenum system, BB system.
Whatcha think????

Nikki I dont know about the starboard thing, although Jerel is one of my best friends, I think it looks weird and you do have a good point. That and the biggest problem is that you dont even get the Ginzu Knife set with it ;) :p


Mike
 

Maxx

Well-Known Member
Would detritus build up underneath, causing future problems? I understand syphoning up the detritus, but without taking out all of the rock and removing the starboard, I'm not sure how any trapped detritus would be removed???
Okay,
just for the record, I don't actually know Jerel, just like his interpretation of an older concept. Nikki, once simple answer for this question....glue that sucker down! Nothing can get under it if it is secured to the tank bottom. I would think that silicone would work fine for that purpose. Also, I would honestly think that depending on your aquascaping and rock work placement, that they (rocks) would press the Starboard flat and prevent it from letting detritus under it. I will let everyone know what I experiance and how I deal w/ it as soon as my tank is up and running...should be couple of weeks, (after New Years...lots of bartending to do between now and then...:D )
I think it looks weird and you do have a good point. That and the biggest problem is that you dont even get the Ginzu Knife set with it
It only looks weird until you get coraline growing all over everything. I let ya know how the knife set works too, Mike;)
Nick
 

Curtswearing

Active Member
BTW folks. Jerel, Bomber, Spanky, and any other names he might go by on forums I have never visited siliconed his starboard down. It's basically the thick white plastic that cutting boards are made out of.

I was trying to get out the door because I had a lot of things running through my head about what I wanted to post when I got home. Unfortunately, we had a power surge and then a blackout at the office for a very short time. I was stuck at the office running diagnostics on the servers and everyones computers while other people were stealing what I wanted to say once I got home.
 

NaH2O

Contributing Member
Originally posted by Maxx
Okay,
just for the record, I don't actually know Jerel, just like his interpretation of an older concept. Nikki, once simple answer for this question....glue that sucker down! Nothing can get under it if it is secured to the tank bottom. I would think that silicone would work fine for that purpose. Also, I would honestly think that depending on your aquascaping and rock work placement, that they (rocks) would press the Starboard flat and prevent it from letting detritus under it. I will let everyone know what I experiance and how I deal w/ it as soon as my tank is up and running...should be couple of weeks, (after New Years...lots of bartending to do between now and then...:D )
It only looks weird until you get coraline growing all over everything. I let ya know how the knife set works too, Mike;)
Nick

I'll be interested to see how it works for you, Nick. I can imagine that with it glued down and sealed tightly that you wouldn't get detritus built up...it would just be a matter of making sure that you have a good seal. I like the idea better than a BB (as long as detritus isn't a problem), as the LR isn't sitting directly on the glass and weight is distributed.
 

Scooterman

Active Member
Starboard he use was designed for boats but is used commercially for various things. I myself would like to see the Gensu. If you used a sheet of acrylic, it would work out to the same affect, just clear & cheaper.

On another note, is there a way to recycle sand? I remember long ago we'd wash our rubble & start all over, althought it was cheap to replace.
 

NaH2O

Contributing Member
Originally posted by Scooterman

On another note, is there a way to recycle sand? I remember long ago we'd wash our rubble & start all over, althought it was cheap to replace.

Good question. Also, when you replace the sand is there any way to get the critters out for your fresh sand? I guess you wouldn't want to replace the whole shabang at once, but would do it in stages, and maybe the other critters would populate the new sand. Alright, I think I answered my own question...lol
 

Curtswearing

Active Member
Thanks for the posts everyone. They have been informative and useful (but 2 years from now they might not be). I'm sorry, we are on a new frontier. That's reefing in 2003. Reefing in 2005 will be so much better if people question conventional wisdom, test, try new things, don't copy others, keep an open mind, and strive for excellence.

The "New Frontiers" forum is designed for open communication because we truly still don't understand all of the processes going on in our tanks. I read, read, read but a lot of the things I was convinced about a year ago no longer hold true. Another point of view is always greatly appreciated---at least for me.

However.....let's get to the task at hand. All filtration methods have their pro's and con's. RS is definately a 'New Frontier' and this very informative thread deserves to be in a 'New Frontier' forum.

I'm sure none of you have seen this line before LOL---'There is more than one way to skin a cat'.

I have seen awesome tanks that use many different filtration methods. Well----let's make this a thread that stands the test of time. This thread is intended to discuss openly what we know to this date.

I know most of the people on this thread and I know how much you know. Most of you guys have gathered a huge amount of knowledge regarding different methods of filtration and people are BEGGING for this info.

Well, let's give it to them..........

All of you continually impress me!!!
 

dgasmd

Member
You know, I have come full circle on the cocept of filtration for MY tank. Before setting it up, I read for like 2 years in RC about every single subject related to reefs. I had freshwater tanks for 12 years prior to that and the syphoning of gravel was second nature and a given with weekly water changes. Somehow I must have been blinded or everwhelmed by the mass of information that common sense did not kick in. This I should have seen coming a mile away.
I thought the concept of a DSB was good and went with it. One year later in my 360 g tank, you could not pay me enough to keep it. My conclusion is that the amount of work it would take to mantain it is well beyond the amount of work I put in my tank currently. That is not to mention the cost. Then again, I have to ask the primary question: what am I getting out of it that is so majestic to justify the great expense of time and money (replenishing critters constantly)?
A the end of a year, all I am getting out of it is:
*0 nitrates (can be achieved by other ways).
*a constant supply of phosphates to feed The Phosban people and to feed the constant supply and ever present cyano.

I am convinced I have learned my lesson the hard way. Even mistakes and failures must be a learning experience if you are to move ahead the best way possible.

I am redoing things completely and will be more in line with how mojoreef here does things. Not because of imitation, which I would gladly admit to if it was the case, but because it goes along my way of interpreting the solution to a simple problem.
 

Curtswearing

Active Member
This forum is designed to give people headaches but it at least makes people think.

Doc---I'm not picking on your post whatsoever.....you just had the unlucky fortune of being the last post before I got some free time. I'm hoping that the "New Frontier" forum makes people think a little so I'm throwing out some thoughts. The purpose of this post is to make some people ask some questions.

There can be some "con's" of a DSB. What are some of the "pro's" that we would have missed if we never had one??? Are there any???

There can be some "con's" of using a canister filter. What are some of the "pro's" that we would have missed if we never had one??? Are there any???

There can be some "con's" of going skimmerless. What are some of the "pro's" that we would have missed if we never went skimmerless??? Are there any???

There can be some "con's" of a plenum. What are some of the "pro's" that we would have missed if we never had a plenum??? Are there any???

There can be some "con's" of using a refugium filled with Caulerpa. What are some of the "pro's" that we would have missed if we never had a caulerpa fuge??? Are there any???

Lets make this harder.....what if the fuge was filled with a different macro??? What if the fuge had a combination of macroalgaes???? What if you were skimmerless but had a lot of different macroalgaes??? What if you had a skimmer but also used a canister filter???

Etc., Etc., and so on......In essence, open your minds and think and be open to other opinions.

no need for clarification here...it's just for simplification.
One of the main issues with a lot of the previously used methods of filtration is the fact that they were awesome breeding grounds for the different bacterias that could turn Ammonia into Nitrite and then into Nitrates. However, the bacterias that got rid of nitrates cannot live in oxygenated water. There was nowhere for nitrates to go but into the water column. Some of these filtration systems had some advantages. Should we 'throw out the baby with the bathwater'? Can some of these "old" methods still be used today?

A couple of methods were found that got rid of nitrates. What were the advantages of these systems and how do they work? Are there any issues related to these systems?

Should we be using older methods and solving nitrate problems in other ways?

RS will always be a nice forum. The members nor the moderators will not allow it to degenerate into nastiness. For the people who like to get into 'meatier' issues without fear of being attacked........you have found a home-----the New Frontiers forum.

BTW----if you have a headache now, put on your thinkin' caps and get ready.

OK---let's discuss all of the filtration methods. A number of them have been discussed. However, the algae fueled filtration methods are not fully covered yet nor several others.
 

Scooterman

Active Member
You know, the more I read the more I realize my thoughts on filtration is souly on the experience & reading I've done but no facts other than observation of my system & the changes I've made to it. I can tell you my experience with FW 25 years in the making but still all experience, reading & observation, I don't think any of that would qualify for scientific facts, umm guess I'm not qualified for no more other than comments from my experiences & observations, does that make sense? I'll sit back at this point & learn, I would love to gather enough information to write a personal documented book for the serious beginner, Filtration would be a major part of a complete system.
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Scott no sitting here buddy so get off your butt and join in, lol Tell me my friend in what you said about your knowledge of filtration, how does that differ from that of a so called expert.???

Ok here is the outline of our little project. We are going to put together an article, with input from as many members that want to participate. We are going to cover several filtration concept systems, so the whole package not components. Example: DSB system, BB system, Plenum system and so on, not this is a skimmer and how it works (we can do that later if we want).
I think it would be best to have individuals write something up and then we can all add to it or delete from it. Dont be shy, even an observaton can explain a process, even if you dont know the process maybe someone else does.
So how do we get this going, lets start with a plenum system first, who wants to do the initial write up??

Mike
 

sparkzippo

New Member
This has a good flow and a great process, but I wanted to ask one further question.

I understand some of the issues discussed earlier with substrate systems, but it seems that the two points of contention in filtration to date with these systems are easier nitrate export and phosphate export.

Does anyone have suggestions to accomplish both of these issues?

Are we looking at multiple systems for export?
 

mojoreef

Just a reefer
Sparkzippo I believe that each system is inherently flawed and yet works. On the systems we are going after they dont really have alot of export mechcanisms build in and relay on out side sources for this. Also each system needs to be set up properly in order to fuction as it was designed, also it needs to be maintained well with good husbandry in order to last. If we gat a good breakdown on how it works and why it works, then add a little of how to design the system and maintain it, I think we can give folks a fighting chance if they choose that sytem to go with.

Nikki wits sytem is a hybrid, as in a mix of DSB and plenum. I would like to keep it pure, them if folks decide to blend systems they can take the knowledge and go for it. I will put a quick thread together on a plenum system, then you folks pick it apart and tell me what to change/add/take out and so on.

Mikw
 

Maxx

Well-Known Member
the two points of contention in filtration to date with these systems are easier nitrate export and phosphate export.
Well actually, that contentious point of substrate systems is that they DON'T export phosphates...they trap or sink them in, only to release them later when they reach saturation levels. Nobody argues against their abilities to reduce nitrates, thats what makes them so attractive in the first place.
Does anyone have suggestions to accomplish both of these issues?
I can only give you my rationale for using the system that I'm planning. Bare Bottom, (in this case Starboard) allows for higher water flow. This is to keep detritus in suspension long enough to be removed via micron sock in the sump/filter floss (replaced regularly, and often), or siphoning. To date no one I have ever read has argued that more frequent water changes are a bad thing for the systems general health. So when combining the frequent water changes, (weekly is my goal) and the media removal of detritus in the sump, (changed every 3 days or so depending on system needs...if it looks nasty, make it go away.) You have a fairly significant method of nitrate and phosphate reduction/removal from the system. I will also be plumbing in a remote refugium/miracle mud bed. Two reasons for this: 1)...the refugium will give pods a place to multiply w/o preyed upon after corals are introduced to the system...(3 months after rock in place to give pods a chance @ building stable populations to begin with....and if I don't lose my damn mind looking at tank w/ just rock sitting in it.:rolleyes: ) 2)...the refugium gives me a place to store calurpa in order to export phosphates and nitrates that might still be in the system after frequent water changes/filter media use. I'm planning that these two systems together will almost completely remove nitrates/phosphates from the system before they hit levels high enough to be a problem. I'm going w/ a sectioned off refugium so that I can replace/remove the miracle mud more easily/completely in regular increments. I'm also using the miracle mud as opposed to sand because of the "leaching" that occurs w/ miracle mud. The mud is 'sposed to contain all sorts of stuff that I really don't have time to list, (where ya at Mike? I know how much you love this stuff, and that you've got the lab reports of the compositional analysis sitting around your house somewhere....trot 'em out guy!:D ) iron and other minerals are in the list...I havent heard of any ones tank crashing or doing poorly when this stuff is used, but not everyone can say that their reefing success is solely due to Miracle Mud use. I don't necessarily want to get into the giant debate that brings on....( Not that saying that will prevent one from coming on....)...this is just my rationale for using it. Many people dislike Miracle mud for many reasons...two most prominent being that the manufacturer states half of it should be replaced every 2 years, and that this stuff is freakin expensive...(80$ per 10 lb bucket) The fact that the manufacturer has stated that his product will allow a reef tank to go skimmerless hasnt exactly endeared it to people who have spent alot of money on skimmers either....I BTW plan on using a skimmer.
How is this different from having a DSB???
Well, to be honest a couple of ways. First, its not being used as a means of nitrate export, (the Mud...) I'm not trying to get sand bed critters in there, (they'll be there, but I dont care about their population levels), its being used to supplement by leaching some of its minerals into the tank, (which thus far in my research hasnt been proven by anyone to be detrimental to the tanks overall well being) The iron alone will aid calurpa growth assuming phosphate and nitrate levels are sufficient enough to allow algae to grow in the first place. Also, its being replaced in stages on a regular basis. Something people were originally told not to do w/ DSB's. Most importantly, its plumbed remotely, which is not advisable w/ DSBs since the detritus levels won't get to the remote sand bed in sufficient levels to support the large sand bed population necessary to make a DSB work. Its being plumbed remotely in order to facilitate removal, and to be able to take it off line if problems arise.
Are we looking at multiple systems for export?
Basically to sum up everything I said previously...ummm, yeah. Thats what I'm going with.
I apologize if this isnt really along the lines of the intent of this particular thread. Just my thoughts on how to go about this, and myy reasoning for going the way I am. Thought this might be either food for thought, or impetus for discussion.
Nick
 

sparkzippo

New Member
I totally agree, Maxx. Substrates do become a phosphate trap. That's were maintenance and replacement come in.

However, the refugium with miracle Mud is just another type of substrate. So, the short of it is, we are looking at mutliple systems, compartmentalized and removed from the display to easier accomidate export of Nitrate and Phosphate with Substrate and Macroalgae or some other form of filtration. The compartmentalized Refugium enables easier maintenance of the substrate (in your case Miracle Mud) and the grooming of the Macroalgae to remove phosphate.

Mojo, I think your idea is great. Lets break down each of the systems and/or methods for filtration, evaluate the pros/cons, identify problem areas, suggest variations, and let people decide on the merits of each system and combination of systems.

Thanks for everyones input:)
 
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