Summaryof filtration systems

[mojoreef]

I just wanted to through this out for discussion, so please jump in.

BB pros and cons.
>Allows for increased flow, keeping detritus suspended in the water, feeding corals more effectivly. And allowing dteritus to be sent down line to a skimmer or source of exportation. No build ups over the long term. Keeps corals cleaner and most resembles a high energy reef. It relies on Lr and removal for dentrification and offers no source beyond that. Requires occasional syphoning in areas where pockets form. Does not allow for more divercity of critters related to a substraights. Not as attractive as a sandy bottom.

>DSB uses a series of biochemical cycles to cycle nutrients/detritus. Is a great source of dentrification and nitrification. Is attractive to some. Allows for divercity of micro infuana associated with sand and to a point a food source for other inhabitants. Does not do any exportation beyond nitrogen based products and will sink all others. Does have a life span. With increase maintenence (stiring and removal of detritus in areboic zone) can extend its life span. Requires most of the exportation devices that all system require in order to export. Restricts flow.

> A plenum (juabert type) allows for higher flow then dsb. Allows for a good divercity of infuana associated with substraights. Allows for denitrification and nitrification (not as much as DSB). Does allow for some elemental replenishment.Will need maintenence (stirring of bed and syphoning of excess detritus). Does not allow for flow as well as a BB system. Also requires the same exportations devices as the other systems. Will trap detritus more then either of the above systems.


Please add to this if I have missed anything.

Mike

 

[Scooterman]

Is there canister type filtration being used these days or is that another topic?

 

[Reef Geek]

Summary of Substrate Systems

Scott brings up a good point, maybe a better subject would be Summary of Substrate systems.

 

[jks1]

i would say that is a fair assessment mike

 

[achilles]

Please add to this if I have missed anything.

Not that anything was necessarily missed, but there are lot of variations on those methods, particularly with plenums. Various grain sizes and depths. Some stir the sandbed others don't etc...

Does not do any exportation beyond nitrogen based products

A DSB will allow for an increased export of carbon via respiration. And not to start the whole debate again, but a DSB can place other nutrients in an exportable form, via the guts and bodies of critters like bacteria to various planktonic creatures that enter the water column. Of course the question is, can those exports keep up with imports.

 

[SZHTTM]

Originally posted by mojoreef
>DSB Does have a life span.
Mike

Can you explain this more? I never really heard of a sand bed having a life span.

Thanks!!;

 

[Reef Geek]

Szhttm,
I read that to be that is has a limited life span, eventually it will stop working. Something without a life span will keep working ... Right?

 

[mojoreef]

Scott What I was thinking that regardless of the system you choose to use, you still have to find a method of exportation, and a canister filter could be a part of any system??? whatcha think??

Geek thier is no substraight in BB.

Achilles

Not that anything was necessarily missed, but there are lot of variations on those methods, particularly with plenums. Various grain sizes and depths. Some stir the sandbed others don't etc...

This is true, on the plenum I did put Jaubert method, but I do here ya IMHO a plenum with fine sand is pretty much a DSB, no?? same would apply to a shallow fine sand substraight??

A DSB will allow for an increased export of carbon via respiration. And not to start the whole debate again, but a DSB can place other nutrients in an exportable form, via the guts and bodies of critters like bacteria to various planktonic creatures that enter the water column. Of course the question is, can those exports keep up with imports.

Hmmm this is another good point, the carbon exported via respiration is very small and tends to be offset, but it is still true.
Maybe I am not approaching this very well. Hmmmm Ok let me tell ya my idea and then maybe you folks can help me out with better direction.
From being in this hobby for a bit I have seen alot of concepts, some work well some dont work at all and then everything inbetween. The absolute biggest problem that I always see is that folks dont know how each system works and thus we tend to get mixed systems that fight against each other or are set up wrong. This is way I posted in the DSB thread not to debate if it works or not or a bad thing or not but to explain how it works so we could better manipulate it to work better and longer. I truely believe that any of the above systems can work if they are done properly, but at the same time can be brutal if not maintained properly. If we all understand the concepts and limitations of each system, we can devize methods of set up, methods of maintence and so on to make them last long and work more efficiently. I want to get as much input as possible from folks so we can put it together from a bunch of differing opinions, then just base it on fact and I think we all could put these systems together so newer folks get a good look at how they all work, thier pros and thier cons and the work involved with them.

What do you all think???

MIke

 

[mojoreef]

SZHTTM thier is another thread in this forum that has a good thread on a dsb, take a quick peek and post that thier, that way we can keep this one going in this direction.

thanks my friend

Mike

 

[Reef Geek]

Originally posted by mojoreef
Geek thier is no substraight in BB.

I was thinking of a BB as a lack of substrate and therefore another substrate option.

 

[Curtswearing]

Ok---
There are two types of filtration. Mechanical filtration and biological filtration.

Mechanical filtration is usually meant to remove something from the water. I.e. a filter bag or filter floss. Even a protein skimmer would qualify in this regard.

Biological filtration is to help the Nitrogen Cycle (I.e. turning Ammonia into Nitrite into Nitrates).

There are some filters that do a little of both. For instance filter floss that isn't cleaned regularly will develop bacteria's that will also perform the first two steps biological filtration. The problem is that a dirty filter floss can never remove nitrates.

Sand beds will perform both types of filtration. They house bacterias for biological filtration. They also offer Mechanical filtration in the sense that eventually the critters detritus has to go somewhere.

LR can help biological filtration as bacteria live on and in it.

Technically, a BB is the lack of a substrate and not a filter. However, bacteria can and will live on it.

This is a great thread. I definately want to have some input on it. It will take me a couple hours---I have to get something out the door right now.

Rock on guys.

 

[Curtswearing]

A lot of the background info can be found in the research section
check out this link

EDIT---in fact, this one gives a pretty good background on the basics. Check out this link

 

[Scooterman]

Originally posted by Curtswearing
Ok---
There are two types of filtration. Mechanical filtration and biological filtration.

Mechanical filtration is usually meant to remove something from the water. I.e. a filter bag or filter floss. Even a protein skimmer would qualify in this regard.

Biological filtration is to help the Nitrogen Cycle (I.e. turning Ammonia into Nitrite into Nitrates).

Actually three!
Chemical filtration (which can be confused as mechanical)!

 

[Curtswearing]

yeah----I was just pounding something out real quick. The funny thing is the link I went and found later mentioned all 3.

 

[Scooterman]

Mike, you poise me a question!

When I first ever conceived of a SW tank & or Reef!
This was one of my biggest problems I had!
I read,read & Whew read for months but Never, never would I come up with what I've got running now! I paid for lots of equipment, designs & really never got any one set of rules or guidelines as for as filtration. Three was mentiond, with several ways of each but If I was a newbie, I'd still be lost! Unless you can point me a trusted read on each based on facts, each broken down good vs. bad, & how to set them up properly, I think it would of saved me a Million dollars! Eliminate all the guessing & list factual systems built from the ground up.

I Hope I didn't post this in the wrong place again?

 

[achilles]

Mojo
I wasn't trying to start up the DSB debate either. For those that are interested, there is no shortage of posts on many forums that can be found, that debate DSBs. I'm also not really a DSB advocate, but like you, I want to make sure people understand the system they choose.

From my understanding, the DSB, does not (for the most part) directly export non nitrogenous nutrients. But via another mechanism, like skimming, critters who have consumed and are composed of those nutrients can be exported. And hey pulling nuisance alge is an export mechanism too, right?

The debate stems from the fact that people believe that the DSB sinks nutrients faster than what are exported, or it just sinks some anyhow as they work their way through the DSB. Therefore they believe that the DSB has a finite lifetime (when it is full). I agree with mojo, that that is not the issue here, it is more on understanding they way a system works. That's why I wanted to mention that there is export vehicle with DSBs.

 

[SZHTTM]

Originally posted by Reef Geek
Szhttm,
I read that to be that is has a limited life span, eventually it will stop working. Something without a life span will keep working ... Right?

Yep, that is extacly what I meant. I guess I just didn't state my question correctly.

Thanks!!;

 

[SZHTTM]

Originally posted by mojoreef
SZHTTM thier is another thread in this forum that has a good thread on a dsb, take a quick peek and post that thier, that way we can keep this one going in this direction.

thanks my friend

Mike

Sorry, but I tried looking and could not find anything that answers my questions:

So, how can a sand bed have a limited life span? It is not the sand that's alive, its the bacteria and other forms of life? Understanding that the actual sand is not alive, why would you consider the other life forms as having a limited life span? Would they not regenerate and propogate? I understand that something traumatic like the over use of copper could kill everything off; but your statements seems to be a blanket one that states that the bacteria and critters living in the sand will all die off one day even if the tank is kept at optimal conditions at all times. That's where I'm confused...

So if you could explain why you think a DSB has a limited lifespan that would help me greatly!!!

Thanks again;

 

[achilles]

SZHTTM
Not lifespan as in the DSB critters die, but a lifespan as in the DSB is unable to process any more waste. So nothing actually dies, but the DSB stops working (dead).

The theory behind this is that the DSB stores nutrients. It will export some of those nutrients (nitrate), but not all (phosphate). Those nutrients will eventually fill up the DSB and make their way back into the water column.

There is alot of science behind this and many threads out there that discuss the specifics both from those who believe this happens and those that don't. If you want more info, I'd do a search a reef central. Also, look in Dr Ron's forum

 

[SZHTTM]

Thanks achilles!!!

I now understand the definition of life span within the text of this thread.

Thanks again!!!