stray voltage
- Thread starter rogbak
- Start date
naperenterprise
Active Member
You can buy cheap one's at Radio Shack
Sticking your hand in won't do anything. You need to have a cut. remember you are grounded. If you have a cut say on your finger, when you put it in the water you will feel the electricity. :bmcflme:
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
You can not really measure voltage in an aquarium with a meter, as is often posted, it is really a false reading and often called
"Induced or Decoupled voltage" If you have a real voltage leak getting in the tank a meter will read ~75 - 110 V. If it is reading a few volts it is meaningless. If there is 75-110 V in the water and you just stick your finger in it will knock you on your butt.
You do not have really touch anything that is grounded. If one things that, then unscrew a light bulb and stick you finger in the socket
Better yet, stand in a bath tub full of water and have someone throw in a hair dryer = DEAD
DO NOT add or use a grounding probe unless you have a GFIC. If you use just a GP it is more dangerous than not having one.
"Induced or Decoupled voltage" If you have a real voltage leak getting in the tank a meter will read ~75 - 110 V. If it is reading a few volts it is meaningless. If there is 75-110 V in the water and you just stick your finger in it will knock you on your butt.
You do not have really touch anything that is grounded. If one things that, then unscrew a light bulb and stick you finger in the socket
Better yet, stand in a bath tub full of water and have someone throw in a hair dryer = DEAD DO NOT add or use a grounding probe unless you have a GFIC. If you use just a GP it is more dangerous than not having one.
naperenterprise
Active Member
I have a grounding probe, with NO GFIC Boomer.
Please advise... How is this dangerous... I wasn't aware of this at all.
Thanks
Please advise... How is this dangerous... I wasn't aware of this at all.
Thanks
JWarren
Active Member
Alright here we go, Bommer you are wrong!
You can check your tank for stray voltage and it has nothing to do with induced or decoupled voltage. Stray voltage typically originates from bad insulation on a device such a pump which is in contact with the tank water. In the case of conductive salt water the potential for electric shock is high! Battery terminals with corrosion is the same effect as salt creep and can enter electrical devices such as lighting that may be sitting on top of the tank.
Everyone knows what will happen if you are in a tub of water and the hair dryer falls in. You will be zapped beyond belief! Why? Because you are becoming part of the circuit that is passing the electricity and the water is your conductor. That's why most municipalities have changed their construction codes, to state that all rooms containing sinks or tubs should have GFI protection on any outlets in a certain range of that sink or tub.
If you come into contact with one line at a time and you are not grounded, you will not be effected. Power line men do it all they time, in fact now, they are using helicopters more and more to actually suspend off of live wires they have energized themselves with. But surely if they where to touch ground, they would fry! If you touch one wire and you get shocked, you are grounded. You will not be shocked, if you are floating in air and not in contact with ground, but thats impossible for us, we are always grounded, some more than others.
Let's understand how breakers work shall we:
Breakers are rated to not allow a maximum of amperage (current) to flow. If a breaker is rated for 10 amps, then the breaker will cut the circuit if anything above 10 amps tries to pass. This has nothing to do with voltage! You could have 1 amp or 10 amps, it's still 110 volts, not 75. If you plug a drill into an outlet it will still be 110 volts no matter what, but it may draw 12 amps of current, which would pop the 10 amp breaker in no time. The only good a breaker is to a tank, is if you are drawing more current than the breaker will permit. It's never a good idea to change out a breaker with a higher rated breaker, because the wires in your walls may not be rated to handle the current increase and could cause a short circuit.
When a short circuit happens the potential for the maximum amount of amperage to pass will occur; this amount is only limited by the wires ability to carry the current as well as how much current is being fed to the circuit itself. Without a fuse or breaker, the current would continue down the line, the wires would heat up until they melt apart and or a fire breaks out in the house.
GFI's are ground fault operated, meaning they detect the pressence of electrical current attempting to pass the grounding part of the plug. If current is detected, then the breaker will cut power.
Most pumps, heaters or any other device that only has a two pronged plug are not grounded. A device that is in direct contact with the water, that is not grounded should be grounded by the use of a grounding probe! The grounding probe runs directly to the GFI plug-in outlet and should be plugged in only to the GFI outlet, not a power strip! A grounding probe plugged into a non grounded power strip is worthless, even though the power-strip is advertised as grounded, never take the chance! Always go to the GFI outlet!
No one should ever assume that just because they can stick their hand in the tank and not get shocked, that it will never happen. No one should ever run a tank unless they are absolutely certain that all devices are grounded.
Now you may be saying, I have a grounding probe and I don't have GFI protection and I don't get shocked anymore. That's because the outlet you have the grounding probe plugged into, is itself grounded. If you look outside your house (usually near the telephone or TV cable line) you will find your grounding rod, thats where the stray voltage is going, into the earth ground. Don't let this lead you into a false sense of security though. You still have a problem in your tank and you should find out why you have stray voltage.
To check your tank for stray voltage, you need a multimeter, set to 110 volts or higher on the AC scale. You will attach the negative probe of the meter to the grounding probe or any other ground, like the screw that holds the plate onto the outlet (if its not painted or if you scratch the paint off it) or if you are skilled enough to use the ground on the outlet itself. Do not to touch the metal parts of the probes with your fingers. Then use the positive probe of the meter to test the tank water. If you see any sign of voltage, your tank is energized and passing current to the ground, you should find out why and what is causing it by unplugging each electrical device one by one till the stray voltage is gone. Once the meter falls to zero you will know what is causing it.
When the stray voltage has been eliminated then the current will not be passing through your tank. Your grounding probe in your tank will then protect you by tripping your GFI protection. This will could possibly save your life but will shut down your tank.
So, whether or not you decide to put in a GFI outlet or not is up to you. If your tank shuts down while you are not at home because your GFI tripped, are you going to be cool with that?
It's your choice, let the current go to ground and hope you do not ever become a greater ground than your earth ground or put in a GFI and deal with the tank going down and possibly saving your life.
You can check your tank for stray voltage and it has nothing to do with induced or decoupled voltage. Stray voltage typically originates from bad insulation on a device such a pump which is in contact with the tank water. In the case of conductive salt water the potential for electric shock is high! Battery terminals with corrosion is the same effect as salt creep and can enter electrical devices such as lighting that may be sitting on top of the tank.
Everyone knows what will happen if you are in a tub of water and the hair dryer falls in. You will be zapped beyond belief! Why? Because you are becoming part of the circuit that is passing the electricity and the water is your conductor. That's why most municipalities have changed their construction codes, to state that all rooms containing sinks or tubs should have GFI protection on any outlets in a certain range of that sink or tub.
If you come into contact with one line at a time and you are not grounded, you will not be effected. Power line men do it all they time, in fact now, they are using helicopters more and more to actually suspend off of live wires they have energized themselves with. But surely if they where to touch ground, they would fry! If you touch one wire and you get shocked, you are grounded. You will not be shocked, if you are floating in air and not in contact with ground, but thats impossible for us, we are always grounded, some more than others.
Let's understand how breakers work shall we:
Breakers are rated to not allow a maximum of amperage (current) to flow. If a breaker is rated for 10 amps, then the breaker will cut the circuit if anything above 10 amps tries to pass. This has nothing to do with voltage! You could have 1 amp or 10 amps, it's still 110 volts, not 75. If you plug a drill into an outlet it will still be 110 volts no matter what, but it may draw 12 amps of current, which would pop the 10 amp breaker in no time. The only good a breaker is to a tank, is if you are drawing more current than the breaker will permit. It's never a good idea to change out a breaker with a higher rated breaker, because the wires in your walls may not be rated to handle the current increase and could cause a short circuit.
When a short circuit happens the potential for the maximum amount of amperage to pass will occur; this amount is only limited by the wires ability to carry the current as well as how much current is being fed to the circuit itself. Without a fuse or breaker, the current would continue down the line, the wires would heat up until they melt apart and or a fire breaks out in the house.
GFI's are ground fault operated, meaning they detect the pressence of electrical current attempting to pass the grounding part of the plug. If current is detected, then the breaker will cut power.
Most pumps, heaters or any other device that only has a two pronged plug are not grounded. A device that is in direct contact with the water, that is not grounded should be grounded by the use of a grounding probe! The grounding probe runs directly to the GFI plug-in outlet and should be plugged in only to the GFI outlet, not a power strip! A grounding probe plugged into a non grounded power strip is worthless, even though the power-strip is advertised as grounded, never take the chance! Always go to the GFI outlet!
No one should ever assume that just because they can stick their hand in the tank and not get shocked, that it will never happen. No one should ever run a tank unless they are absolutely certain that all devices are grounded.
Now you may be saying, I have a grounding probe and I don't have GFI protection and I don't get shocked anymore. That's because the outlet you have the grounding probe plugged into, is itself grounded. If you look outside your house (usually near the telephone or TV cable line) you will find your grounding rod, thats where the stray voltage is going, into the earth ground. Don't let this lead you into a false sense of security though. You still have a problem in your tank and you should find out why you have stray voltage.
To check your tank for stray voltage, you need a multimeter, set to 110 volts or higher on the AC scale. You will attach the negative probe of the meter to the grounding probe or any other ground, like the screw that holds the plate onto the outlet (if its not painted or if you scratch the paint off it) or if you are skilled enough to use the ground on the outlet itself. Do not to touch the metal parts of the probes with your fingers. Then use the positive probe of the meter to test the tank water. If you see any sign of voltage, your tank is energized and passing current to the ground, you should find out why and what is causing it by unplugging each electrical device one by one till the stray voltage is gone. Once the meter falls to zero you will know what is causing it.
When the stray voltage has been eliminated then the current will not be passing through your tank. Your grounding probe in your tank will then protect you by tripping your GFI protection. This will could possibly save your life but will shut down your tank.
So, whether or not you decide to put in a GFI outlet or not is up to you. If your tank shuts down while you are not at home because your GFI tripped, are you going to be cool with that?
It's your choice, let the current go to ground and hope you do not ever become a greater ground than your earth ground or put in a GFI and deal with the tank going down and possibly saving your life.
burning2nd
Well-Known Member
wow... little bit to much science not enough reality
my hands have cuts on them most of the time ( that im caution of around stuff in my tank)
but any little cut or raw skin... (if you bit your nails) will let ya know that voltage is stray...
but john got it...
multmeter.
my hands have cuts on them most of the time ( that im caution of around stuff in my tank)
but any little cut or raw skin... (if you bit your nails) will let ya know that voltage is stray...
but john got it...
multmeter.
naperenterprise
Active Member
i'm scared now... verhere:
verhere:funkpolice
Active Member
GFCIs save lives. Everyone should use them with their tank.
bill
bill
slakker
Member
Saves human lives for sure, maybe not aquarium lives if it trips. I propose using them given the 2 choices.
Simply put, a GFCI will trip if the ground wire becomes a return path for the circuit, that means there's a "leak" and it'll shut the circuit off. If that circuit isn't shut off and that "leak" finds a path thru you, you can get zapped.
If possible, split your devices up over multiple GFCI outlets and balance them so if only one circuit trips, the minimum live support is still there... like heat, etc.. Although, dependin on the leak, it may still trip all GFCIs.
Simply put, a GFCI will trip if the ground wire becomes a return path for the circuit, that means there's a "leak" and it'll shut the circuit off. If that circuit isn't shut off and that "leak" finds a path thru you, you can get zapped.
If possible, split your devices up over multiple GFCI outlets and balance them so if only one circuit trips, the minimum live support is still there... like heat, etc.. Although, dependin on the leak, it may still trip all GFCIs.
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
JWarren
Sorry YOU are wrong......again This has been written about extensively by a couple of EE who have done extensive testing with data to back it up. If I post it you are going to look silly
First, to be sure we are on the same page. Do you know what is meant by a GP in this hobby ? It is a metal rod you stick in the tank. They look a like a pH probe and some are just SS or titanium rods. The end is often attached to the screw on a wall socket that holds the plate on, others plug-in.
Then use the positive probe of the meter to test the tank water. If you see any sign of voltage, your tank is energized and passing current to the ground, you should find out why and what is causing it by unplugging each electrical device one by one till the stray voltage is gone. Once the meter falls to zero you will know what is causing it.
This is not so, it is a false voltage reading.
Before I go any further I'll let you do some Google searching on Induced or Stray voltage in aquariums , so you have time to retract much of what you have said. And one of these articles is by one of the worlds leading expert on voltage/current in Seawater, it is what he studies
Buy the way I'm one of the innovators of the GP concept, along with Andrew Thomas, of SandPoint. It was Andrew that brought the GP to this hobby. I us to believe the way you do, until we were put in our place buy some EE's, telling us it is mostly nonsense. I use to argue the way you are So, I know where you are coming from.
I have posted many times on this concept, at RC and FF. Most of it is found on FF
Lastly, have you run any test or just taking ? I have run extensive tests on many pieces of equipment ( with no GFCI). I have many hrs into it. Almost all of them produce voltage. Do you know that if you hook-up the meter and get voltage and just turn on and off your lights it will change the voltage. Do you know that if you take a 10 gal tank with nothing in it but seawater and just park it next to a outlet the meter will have voltage. Do you know that if you then put a GP in the water the voltage disappears ? Do you know if you put any heater or PH into that 10 gal tank it will also show voltage. Do you know that all electrical devices generate electromagnetic fields ? Do you know how a Amp-Clamp works, think about that ?
Where did this voltage theory come from ? It was believed that this induced volatge was causing Hole-in-the Head & Laterial Line Erosion Disease in fish.
And yes for sure all tanksd should have GFCI's
Sorry YOU are wrong......again
This has been written about extensively by a couple of EE who have done extensive testing with data to back it up. If I post it you are going to look silly First, to be sure we are on the same page. Do you know what is meant by a GP in this hobby ? It is a metal rod you stick in the tank. They look a like a pH probe and some are just SS or titanium rods. The end is often attached to the screw on a wall socket that holds the plate on, others plug-in.
Then use the positive probe of the meter to test the tank water. If you see any sign of voltage, your tank is energized and passing current to the ground, you should find out why and what is causing it by unplugging each electrical device one by one till the stray voltage is gone. Once the meter falls to zero you will know what is causing it.
This is not so, it is a false voltage reading.
Before I go any further I'll let you do some Google searching on Induced or Stray voltage in aquariums , so you have time to retract much of what you have said. And one of these articles is by one of the worlds leading expert on voltage/current in Seawater, it is what he studies
Buy the way I'm one of the innovators of the GP concept, along with Andrew Thomas, of SandPoint. It was Andrew that brought the GP to this hobby. I us to believe the way you do, until we were put in our place buy some EE's, telling us it is mostly nonsense. I use to argue the way you are
So, I know where you are coming from.I have posted many times on this concept, at RC and FF. Most of it is found on FF
Lastly, have you run any test or just taking ? I have run extensive tests on many pieces of equipment ( with no GFCI). I have many hrs into it. Almost all of them produce voltage. Do you know that if you hook-up the meter and get voltage and just turn on and off your lights it will change the voltage. Do you know that if you take a 10 gal tank with nothing in it but seawater and just park it next to a outlet the meter will have voltage. Do you know that if you then put a GP in the water the voltage disappears ? Do you know if you put any heater or PH into that 10 gal tank it will also show voltage. Do you know that all electrical devices generate electromagnetic fields ? Do you know how a Amp-Clamp works, think about that ?
Where did this voltage theory come from ? It was believed that this induced volatge was causing Hole-in-the Head & Laterial Line Erosion Disease in fish.
And yes for sure all tanksd should have GFCI's
thelastmucci
Active Member
Gary I thought the same thing as soon as I saw this headline LOL:columbo:
Boomer
Reef Sanctuary's Mr. Wizard
Since a recent post elsewhere asked a question on GAC and its effect on HLLE, another so called cause from stray voltage and I forgot about it here, so I'm posting it now. I'm surprised no one asked.
In short;
any electrical device in an aquarium, be that of a heater, pump, etc., acts as a resistor. These are sealed in plastic, glass, or some other nonconductive material, in electrical terms - an insulator. Once the aquarist places a ground probe in the water, another resistor is created by completing the circuit and turning the water into a second resistor. Two resistors separated by an insulator is capacitive coupling and this allows electrons to flow out of the tank through the ground probe. The point being, without the ground probe, the circuit is not completed and no charges flow. Hence, the "cure" for stray voltage and its impact on MHLLE by the use of a ground probe is what causes the stray voltage in the first place. Without the ground probe, there is no stray voltage.
Stray Voltages: Explained! By David Kessner
Stray Voltages
Voltage in the Aquarium By Gerry Parker
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Voltage in the Aquarium By Gerry Parker
Robert Michelson
Principal Research Engineer, Emeritus - Georgia Tech Research Institute
Adjunct Associate Professor (Ret.) - Georgia Institute of Technology
President - Millennial Vision, LLC
Grounding Probes, Static Potentials and Ground Fault Interrupters in the Aquarium
Technical Details of Stray Voltage in Aquaria
In short;
any electrical device in an aquarium, be that of a heater, pump, etc., acts as a resistor. These are sealed in plastic, glass, or some other nonconductive material, in electrical terms - an insulator. Once the aquarist places a ground probe in the water, another resistor is created by completing the circuit and turning the water into a second resistor. Two resistors separated by an insulator is capacitive coupling and this allows electrons to flow out of the tank through the ground probe. The point being, without the ground probe, the circuit is not completed and no charges flow. Hence, the "cure" for stray voltage and its impact on MHLLE by the use of a ground probe is what causes the stray voltage in the first place. Without the ground probe, there is no stray voltage.
Stray Voltages: Explained! By David Kessner
Stray Voltages
Voltage in the Aquarium By Gerry Parker
Reefs.org: Where Reefkeeping Begins on the Internet - Voltage in the Aquarium By Gerry Parker
Robert Michelson
Principal Research Engineer, Emeritus - Georgia Tech Research Institute
Adjunct Associate Professor (Ret.) - Georgia Institute of Technology
President - Millennial Vision, LLC
Grounding Probes, Static Potentials and Ground Fault Interrupters in the Aquarium
Technical Details of Stray Voltage in Aquaria