Planted freshwater tank with prefilter/sump set-up?

[dwall174]

Hello All

I've been out of the hobby for several years now due to beeing out of town & on the road a lot.
Changes with my work schedual now give me more time at home so I'm looking into setting up a planted freshwater tank for now.

I still have my RO/DI unit, storage tank & a pre-filter/sump set-up! Just wondering if anyone has gone from a saltwater tank with a pre-filter/sump set-up, To a freshwater tank & used alot of the same equipment?

Doug

 

[DaveK]

A FW planted tank using SW reef equipment is actually done quite often.

There are a few things to look out for.

Even high tech, high light FW planted system requires much less light that you would use on a low light SW reef system. For example, if you were using a 4 bulb T5 fixture on a reef tank, you would typically use about two bulbs on a high light planted tank. The color temp of lighting for a FW planted tank is also toward the lower color temps about 6500K to about 10000K. Actinic lighting is almost never used on FW planted tanks.

You can use a sump, but with all the water flow and all, it will tend to degas CO2. In a FW planted tank CO2 is you friend, since it keeps plants growing well. Many FW planted systems supplement CO2 by various means.

RO/DI water can be used, but you usually need to build it back up. Also, you usually don't need the DI part, so you can save some money there. You'll see items like GH builder that you use to bring the water to the hardness you want. You'll also need to do the same thing with KH. Many planted tank keepers just use tap water, and add something like Prime. Personally, I use RO water and build it back up, as I feel I have more control.

Nitrates and Phosphates and such. In a SW reef, you are usually working to keep these as low as possible, to control algae. In a FW planted tank, you need a certain amount of them for plant growth. The trick here is to have the plants growing at such a rate that they out compete algae for the nitrates and phosphates. People that get into planted tanks, often add fertilizers to maintain nitrate and phosphate levels. It's quite a switch from a reef. You usually want to buy the GH builder and ferts in bulk and mix you own stock solutions. There are a some very elaborate methods of dealing with ferts in a planted tank. The good news is that you don't need to get that fancy.

Get your plants from LFSs that know what they are doing. There is a lot of fraud going on here, with house plants being sold as aquarium plants. May people in the hobby will sell for cheep, trade, or give away cutting of plants they have.

Obviously you will not tend to get the best answers about planted tanks on a SW reef forum. I recommend joining one or two of the planted tank forums. Here is one I use (offsite) - http://www.plantedtank.net/

You see a few names that come up again in the hobby.

Tom Barr, who is one of the experts on the subject. He's got his own website here (offsite) - http://www.barrreport.com/ Note - some of his newsletter stuff is not free.

Takashi Amano is the person that just about invented the "nature aquarium", which is a commonly used method for keeping planted tanks. He owns ADA which is a company that makes products for such tanks. You can see the company site here (offsite) - http://www.adana.co.jp/en/ Inspirational tanks, but ADA equipment is ultra extreme expensive, often even more that SW reef equipment. Amano has also written a lot of books on the subject. They usually contain fantastic pictures, because he is a photographer by trade, but the books are usually a little short on how to do it.

Books you might like -

Encyclopedia of Aquarium Plants by Peter Hiscock - Excellent information to get you going.
Ecology of the Planted Aquarium by Diana Walstad - Really gets into the science behind FW planted tanks. Book has only a few picts.

Good luck. BTW, depending on how deep you get into this, you may find planted tanks almost as much work as a SW reef. However, they do tend to be a lot less expensive to setup and run.

 

[dwall174]

Even high tech, high light FW planted system requires much less light that you would use on a low light SW reef system.

I have a Ice-Cap 430 ballast that I used to run my actinics off of. My plans are for a 90gal. tank, So that should be good for starting off with!

You can use a sump, but with all the water flow and all, it will tend to degas CO2. In a FW planted tank CO2 is you friend, since it keeps plants growing well. Many FW planted systems supplement CO2 by various means.

Yeah from what I have read it sounds like a C02 system is the way to go! But as you pointed out, The sump set-up will degas things faster. Seeing that I already have the sump set-up I hope to re-work it & use sponge filter pads to help with the degasing.

RO/DI water can be used, but you usually need to build it back up. Also, you usually don't need the DI part, so you can save some money there.

That's what I've read also, In fact my tap water is pretty good TDS was usually under 150, So I may be able to get away with a 4 stage carbon filter set-up & not use the RO?

Here's a link to one of my old posts on my water change RO/DIset-up. http://www.reefsanctuary.com/forums/polls/9506-water-change-method.html

Nitrates and Phosphates and such. In a SW reef, you are usually working to keep these as low as possible, to control algae. In a FW planted tank, you need a certain amount of them for plant growth. The trick here is to have the plants growing at such a rate that they out compete algae for the nitrates and phosphates.

I knew the Nitrates were important for the plants, But I really never woried about the Phosphates in my Saltwater system. I kept a couple of bags of Phos-Ban in the sump & never had a problem with Phosphates.

May people in the hobby will sell for cheep, trade, or give away cutting of plants they have.

When I had my SW set-up with a refugium, I use to take a big bag full of Chaetomorpha to my LFS about every two weeks! If I could find something like the Chaeto for FW then maybe a refugium could also work on a FW set-up?

Obviously you will not tend to get the best answers about planted tanks on a SW reef forum.

Yeah I'm also registered on several of those sites, But they tend to knock the sump set-ups for the reasons you mentioned about the degasing efect of the C02.

Thanks for all the information, I'll check out some of those books you mentioned!

Doug

 

[DaveK]

The Ice Cap ballast sounds OK, but that ballast is no longer available. Make sure that what every you do, you can replace it with off the shelf parts.

If your going to use tap water, you usually want to add something like Prime. It's not expensive. You only need to mix it with the water a few minutes if you do it that way so no big mixing vats ans such are needed.

For filtering a FW planted tank, think in terms of a canister filter, even if you use a sump. Mechanical filtration, some form of chemical filtration, and maybe some form of biological filtration in the canister. The preferred chemical media is usually Purigen, not carbon. This is because it will not throw dirt, and you can regenerate it with bleach. The biological filtration is optional because the plants do that, and because ammonia at a low pH is far less a problem.

I don't think your getting it in regards to nitrates and phosphates. In a SW tank, you use things like Phos-ban and refugiums to remove them. In a FW planted tank you usually want to add nitrates and phosphates. Trying to build a refugium with something like Chaeto is counter productive. The big trick here is to maintain a balance between nitrates, phosphates, and potassium, and also maintain the trace elements. You'll see products like CSM-B that adds these minor trace chemicals. All this stuff feeds the plants.

FW planted systems have similar goals as SW systems, but the want you go about it is often quite a bit different. To some extent you'll find that you need to unlearn some things you took for granted in a SW system. For example, adding ferts to get nitrates and phosphats, and wanting some CO2 in the system.

Plenty of people use a sump in FW planted tanks. Many put a cover over it if the tank is a FW planted tank. Yes, if you were going it from scratch, you'd do it differently, but it's not like the system is not going to work. You can always compensate for the sump by adding more CO2.

 

[Luukosian]

Dave had a lot of good points(to be honest I didn't read all the posts), coming from a guy that started out with freshwater planted tanks before venturing in to saltwater I'd say he has some pretty good advice. With that setup you don't want to offgas that much CO2 so not sure I'd run a sump but if you are dosing CO2 you might experiment. Like he said it's kind of backwards to the reef world because I used to actually dose phosphate and nitrate instead of trying to take it to 0. Low-tech low light systems are a lot easier to run but not near as fun(for people like me that like to tinker). I used to use tap water and had no algae problems, but like he said above you do have a bit more control if you went the RO route. In my mind though why remove nitrate and phos just to add it right back in.......especially when you know your tap levels(mine were pretty low to begin with we have good water here). I have found a good substrate really helped not only keep plants rooted but supply nutrients such as iron as well. I always used seachem flourite and had really good success.

Just read through some more of the posts and yeah...You don't want a refugium on a planted tank because in essence your display tank is the nutrient sink. Takashi Amano is pretty much any planted tank enthusiasts idol....and Tom Barr, I used his dosing system for a long time with good results. Loved my high-tech planted tanks but I'll tell you if you thought a reef was a lot of work be prepared for the same if not more trimming, dosing, water changing, etc....there's a reason my 3 remaining freshwater tanks are low-tech now and it's mainly time related lol.

 

[nanoreefing4fun]

Hi Doug - good luck on the re-start & nice to see you on RS again !

 

[dwall174]

Hi Doug - good luck on the re-start & nice to see you on RS again !

Yeah I miss the hobby, Hopefully with the changes to my work schedual I'll be able to get my feet wet again.

My old SW set-up with a auto top off system & auto feeder could be left alone for about 5 days, But after that levels started to change pretty quickly. With the newer electronic controllers & monitors out there now, It would be a lot easier to set up a system that can be left alone for a longer time.

Doug

 

[dwall174]

I have found a good substrate really helped not only keep plants rooted but supply nutrients such as iron as well. I always used seachem flourite and had really good success.

I'm planning on using a substrate like flourite or Miracle Mud (freshwater) I also seen a way to make your own substrate from Bentonite clay (cat-litter) & several other items.

Just read through some more of the posts and yeah...You don't want a refugium on a planted tank because in essence your display tank is the nutrient sink.

Yeah I realize that a refugium would be counter productive on a FW set-up, But mine worked great on my SW system, Being able to remove a big bag of Chaeto every two weeks helped out my Nitrate levels a lot.

Doug

 

[dwall174]

The Ice Cap ballast sounds OK, but that ballast is no longer available.

Not surprising since it's probably over 15yrs. old, It's not been in use for the past 6yrs. But it ran good back then.

I don't think your getting it in regards to nitrates and phosphates. In a SW tank, you use things like Phos-ban and refugiums to remove them. In a FW planted tank you usually want to add nitrates and phosphates. Trying to build a refugium with something like Chaeto is counter productive.

Yeah I understand the process, And agree that a refugium would not work well in a planted set-up.
Probably would work good in a FW fish only tank thou!

You can always compensate for the sump by adding more CO2.

That's what I'll probably do! Dont think I'll go with a high tech fully auto set up, But there's some nice manual set-ups that are some-what affordable.

Thanks,
Doug

 

[dwall174]

Loved my high-tech planted tanks but I'll tell you if you thought a reef was a lot of work be prepared for the same if not more trimming, dosing, water changing, etc....there's a reason my 3 remaining freshwater tanks are low-tech now and it's mainly time related lol.

Well if they were easy everyone would do it!

My main concern is being able to leave the tank some-what unatended for close to a week at a time.
I'm a truck driver & I was running over the road (out two weeks at a time) for the last few years, Recently swiched companies & now I'm home a lot more.
Being I still have my 5 stage RO/DI unit & some of the plumbing from my old SW set-up, I can always make another auto top-off system. That with a automatic feeder & timers, I think I can get away with leaving it alone for several days!

I do have one advantage with my home security system which is set-up to call my cell phone if the alarm is triped. Besides fire & gas sensors, There's a connection on the controll box for a water sensor. This is ment to add a sensor in the basement in-case of a broken water line or flood! I can always add a sensor to the bottom of my cabinet which would alert me of any major water problems. My brother lives only a few miles away, And could always check on things if needed.

Doug

 

[DaveK]

One think you will find out is that you get a lot less evaporation out of a planted tank. Typically they are not as open to the air. On the other hand, some methods of fertilization use 50% water changes per week. That's not too bad in a 20 gal tank, but if you got a 100 gal tank it's a pain.