Phosphate Phad?

[mps9506]

Originally posted by BoomerD
I wrote to Julian Sprung after my orange tank mess. Here's his response:

It is true that using PhosBan in a fluidized filter is the best way to use it, BUT... the design of the fluidized filter can make or break the application. Probably you are using a Merlin or similar filter. These will pulverize the PhosBan because they don't have a dispersion plate and sponge pad at the base to keep the PhosBan away from the bottom where the water enters with force.

What is probably happening then is that the PhosBan is at the bottom of the filter where the water enters with force, and it is being pulverized there.

We have a solution- Two Little Fishies is introducing a fluidized
reactor called the PhosBan Reactor 150. It holds up to 200 grams of PhosBan and works with a maxijet 500 or Eheim 1046. It includes a ball valve to regulate the flow. The retail price is around $40. It will be available from mail order supply houses in a few weeks."

Andy at MRC just put out his reactor too. It has a pad at the bottom for dispersion and to keep the phosban out of the tank. Pretty pricey though


I'm glad I haven't jumped on this bandwagon yet. No offense meant to anyone that uses Phosban or rowa. I'm just lucky I haven't had any phosphate problems yet, or felt that phosphates were slowing my SPS growth.

One thing I am noticing, a lot of people that are mentiong there experiences with Rowa or Phosban, have only been using it for a month or two. Some folks a little longer, not too many people have really been using Iron based phosphate removers for a significant period of time (IMO). I feel like quite a few people of late have been jumping the gun on this issue, I've just stood back and watched in the meantime. I think people are very quick to point the finger to blame something for various problems.
Sorry, starting to rant

Back to Phosphates...
Wit,
The reason I see the concern for phosphates is because: one, it helps fuel annoying algae growth, and two, it slows or inhibits calcification or growth of stoney corals. I'm not to concerned with the Zoox, they do reproduce fairly well as far as I am aware
NaH20,
You are correct from the way I see it. That is why it is important to reduce the introduction of phosphates as much as possible.
Phosphates will become bound up and become unavalible over time in the aquarium (Actually one of the reasons a well maintained DSB can be a good thing )
Just some stuff I was thinking...
Mike

 

[Witfull]

mike, i know the concerns of phos, i just like to throw things out there, never know where a conversation may go! hypothetical hypothosis has done wonders.

 

[ReefLady]

First of all, I pretty much agree with everyone here.

I do think people have jumped on a bandwagon quickly here, and this is not the "using RP or PB" bandwagon. It's actually building the CONSTANT use of these materials into your system that concerns me. Have we not learned anything? "Don't run any chemicals/media you don't have to" is some of the best and most common advice around. I'm sure these products do a great job at fixing a problem. It's their use as a preventive measure that seems out of hand to me.

Nikki, someone in that thread brough up some good points- an initial change in chemistry and an increase in clarity seems to me to be enough to send SPS back into "adjusting mode" where they grow slowly and are at higher risk for RTN. After all, their environment has changed, and we know well by now that SPS react to those changes with these exact behaviors.

T

 

[Curtswearing]

I LOVE the New Frontiers Forum....GREAT DISCUSSION!!!....I'm probably completely wrong but at least this forum makes me dig. I've never used Rowaphos in a fluidized bed reactor. I've only run it passively in a filter bag so I can't comment fully on the issue. My tank (anecdotally) was greatly improved by using Rowaphos. Anecdotally, I never had coralline algae before using it (which I once greatly desired but now I hate).

Since all of my evidence is anecdotal, lets think this through as the posts on RC are every bit as anecdotal as what I just mentioned in the previous paragraph.

Just thinking out loud here. Zoox require both N and P for growth. We know that that corals are able to take up dissolved bio-available N from the water at LOW ambient levels. The can get the various types of P and N from bacteria, fish poop, blender mush, as well as dissolved inorganic phosphates.

We also know that phosphorus
Inhibits Calcification

I'm going to have to go digging into my browser history a little here but I was just reading about a coral reef that was being destroyed by excess nutrients (both N and P) as a result of excess nutrients due to human activity. Granted, it's not about a reef tank but maybe the research on the real McCoy is better. Here's a little that I've already found but I will dig a little more and try to find the rest of the info.

Olivieri (1997) describes some of the fine points of “eutrophication,” including how excess nutrients have a harmful effect on coral by overstimulating the growth of zooxanthellae to a point where their “uncontrolled” growth disrupts the normal function of the coral: “Eutrophication also operates at the zooxanthellae level. Excess nutrients increase zooxanthellae growth, which, counterintuitively, is not beneficial for the coral host. Under natural conditions zooxanthellae populations are fairly constant and nutrient-limited, particularly by nitrates, within the coral host. With excess nutrients the zooxanthellae population grows uncontrolled and the balance of the nitrogen-carbon fluxes between the coral host and zooxanthellae is disrupted, resulting in a reduction of calcification and weakening of the coral calcareous skeleton.” (Olivieri, 1997)

Eutrophication is widely blamed on problems with a lot of coral reefs.

This is the same thing that happens with excess calcium based on a previous discussions and posts with Mojoreef. The coral is stuck with calcium but doesn't want it. Readers of the New Frontiers forum know that calcium is bad for the coral so it gets rid of it and a coral reef is born. Here's some more basic INFO

OK...what's the problem here? Were the corals in overdrive previously due to excess nutrients which will cause an early death? Is the Iron in RowaPhos causing a chemistry shift in the water or accumulating in our tanks? Is this merely due to anecdotal evidence?

Let's continue the discussion......

 

[ReefLady]

Originally posted by Travis
an initial change in chemistry and an increase in clarity seems to me to be enough to send SPS back into "adjusting mode" where they grow slowly and are at higher risk for RTN. After all, their environment has changed, and we know well by now that SPS react to those changes with these exact behaviors.

T

That's my theory and I'm stickin' to it.

 

[Curtswearing]

You could very well be right. If we change our lighting and don't acclimate them, that can happen. If we let our tank turn into a cesspool and then clean them up, that can happen due to increased water clarity.

I've been using the product for at least 6 months and I use it as a preventative measure. There is only a limited period of time that phosphates are going to be inorganic and I want something other than an algae or a bacteria to grab it (which unfortunately is quite difficult).

 

[middletonmark]

Travis, I'm in agreement.

What struck me about some of those having problems:

New users ... done to `enhance' SPS growth - not to combat a problem. Heavy use often too.

Multiple things going on - you have one guy talking about starting RP, dosing FW Exit, and playing with the Ca Reactor. That sure sounds like messing with tank chemistry ... never mind 2 experiemnts in `what will mystery chemical do to my tank'.

Same with the `Interceptor' Red-bug [and all crustacean] killer. Poeple using this in association with PB/RP.

(note: not to suggest there's intereactions there ... but seems an awful lot like people are doing a couple experimental things on their tanks all at once - not a wise path IMO).

---

It scares me to see their mass runs of lemmings on online reefing. [Phoshpate removers, interceptor, FW's, CS salt, DSB's/BB]. Does anyone actually think for themself? [myself included ]

It's good to have these wake-up calls ... as it's really easy to be swayed into buying device #1 or believing that things will be better if I only do _____. Don't be a sucker ... if your tank is doing well now, leave it the heck alone. Just because everyone else is buying ... skip it.

There's far too much `keeping up with joneses' in this hobby at time ... which IMO is not good for the corals, or our pocketbook. Or so things can be ... probably everyone on this thread ain't one of them though
Now where's my Purple Monster, my PB reactor, and my Oceansmotions? Oh wait, I have two gorgeous tanks without them

 

[middletonmark]

Being kind of related ... this blew me away:
http://www.advancedaquarist.com/issues/may2004/editorial.htm

To paraphrase `there's this RowaPhos stuff, experts told me about it and look at my amazing coral!, here's where to buy it .... oh yeah, someone's going to check this stuff out in another month, but we thought we'd just add some hype'

 

[mps9506]

I totally agree with you travis.
Same thing goes for Ozone. Increase the clarity in your water pretty quickly, increases pretein skimmer production. Then voila, bleaching acros.... I'm waiting for this to happen as well after the ozone thread at RC that was umpteen pages long. And right after noticing the people in the sales forum requesting ozone units and orp sensors.

BTW, Mark, it is easier to not think for yourself

Curts,
There been a ton of papers written on the bleaching of reefs attributed not only to increased temperatures, but driven also in part by increased nutrients from run off. Quite often it results in increased hair algae growth among other things. It's a big circle of mess, one thing goes wrong and everything goes haywire.

I haven't read much yet on Phosphorus uptake by corals, or how much they naturally utilize.

IMO, Travis has hit the nail on the head with what is going wrong with people's tanks once they start using rowa or phosban. Instant chemistry changes to a tank that has been mostly stable.
I'm sure the nice coating of ferrousoxide in the tank people have experienced has something to do with it also...
Mike

 

[Maxx]

Hmmmm......many, many valid points here.
What I'm noticing though is pretty much two main differences of opinion, and oddly enough thye seem to be seperated by one thing only.....time.
If it aint broke, dont mess w/ it...seems to be one side of the camp. And to be fair, why mess w/ success. If you're doing things just fine right now, I wouldnt be inclined to change things w/ my system at all.
The other side of the fence is design/building systems w/ this factored in already,(Mojo....I think Nikki...and maybe some others), or is attempting to deal w/ a nuisance/hair algae problem.
Those building a system w/ the P filter/remover from the get go shouldnt have any adjustment problems. Why would they? There can be arguements about the FerrosOxide compounds, but I'm not gonna go there right now...to early in the AM and I dont have coffee yet....
Those that are attempting to deal w/ algae issues....well this seems to be the person who needs a P filter the most and yet can see the worst results from one. We are all in agreement that sudden changes in coral environments causes problems.
So how do these people deal this scenario?
Nick

 

[ReefLady]

Good points Maxx. I'm becoming a firm believer in building a reactor into the system but NOt using it unless you have an actual need.

I would say I believe starting a system with continuous PO4 reactor use would be a good way to go, but I'm not completely convinced that there won't be long-term issues associated with constant use down the road. That lesson resonates in my mind as I have flashbacks to ripping out my DSB.

 

[NaH2O]

and why was that DSB ripped out....what was being released?

If it aint broke, dont mess w/ it

While I see this point to a degree....isn't that what people were saying about their DSBs? Oh, I'm not having any issues....it's not broken....but eventually the beds become saturated (beyond the starting saturation point with the sand) and algal issues come into play. The use of a sponge isn't a total removal of phosphates, you can't remove phosphates already in the organism.....let's see, and we feed phosphate containing food....and if an organism gets to the "free" phosphate before the sponge, then it will take it. Perhaps people having issues with their use of a P sponge would look at their whole system and break it down - there will be other things contributing to the overall picture.

Maybe people could acclimate their tanks to the P sponges.....run it a few days here and there then increase it. I don't know........

 

[Maxx]

While I see this point to a degree....isn't that what people were saying about their DSBs? Oh, I'm not having any issues....it's not broken....but eventually the beds become saturated (beyond the starting saturation point with the sand) and algal issues come into play.

You're preaching to the choir here Nikki....just attempting to make some non BB/DSB remarks in this scenario.
However, your thought process of running it sporadically until things begin to acclimate to it makes some sense.
Mojo, what are the concerns if any, with using a constant iron based media in the tank? Are there any long term effects from iron leaching into the water column? I cant really imagine that there would be....but I'm not the chemistry guru here either.
Nick

 

[strat]

ive got a newbie question, i see all these awesome pics of all your tanks and i dont see any algae problems. being that i dont have a tank yet, are you only taking pix when there isnt algae, or is there a constant battle with it, or does it cycle?? or are your tanks relatively algae free and this whole phos sponge thing is just preventative? forgive my ignorance thanks in advance

im still learning tonnes and tonnes

strat

 

[middletonmark]

I dunno for everyone. I've had good luck I guess. Only a few times have I had really any algae on my shallow substrate [telling me to vacuum + siphon]

Mostly I just have minor dustings of whatever grows on my glass. A quick wipe every day or two and I' good [except for the coralline].

My softie tank has a small patch of hairy algae that seems to be shrinking and appeared really only for a few months. I guess I'm just lucky [?] ... though I deliberately tried to stock lightly and slowly [cured the rock outside the tank, before setting tank up].

Anyway, that's my take. Probably a ton of different experiences ... but the only time I really had a algae problem was running a sandbed, an experiment I ended before too long.

 

[NaH2O]

just attempting to make some non BB/DSB remarks in this scenario.

I'm not trying to turn this into a BB/DSB discussion at all. I was just making a point based on Travis' comment about ripping out his sandbed. Also, just trying to relate the "if it aint broke" statement to something that was more recent.

Strat, all reefers have had to deal with algae on some level. Think about the algae cycle when the tank first starts. I'm sure there are a lot of reefers that only want to show their tanks while they look great (kind of like not showing a picture of yourself when you first wake up). Swipe off the glass, clean up the tank, and there you have a great pic. However, there are many tanks out there that look great on any given moment....without any issues at all...but it is a constant work in progress.

 

[Witfull]

Originally posted by NaH2O
...but it is a constant work in progress.

halleluah siter Nikki...i fight battle after battle, sound tactics to wage war....nahh,,,who am i kidding, i concider maintainance playtime and stress removal.

 

[strat]

right on, its like i figured then....

still following along

strat

 

[mojoreef]

LOL, Out of the thousands of folks that use RP in thier aquariums 3 folks say it cuased a couple of sps to rtn in thier tanks. For me its a non issue. Who even knows what going on in thier tanks. When I put PR into my tank I dumped in 2 five liter pails of it. I first ran it in the bath tub to allow the fine particulate to come out, When I put it into my system I did a slow and gradulal increase, took about a month. no problems noticed then or now.
Using a sponge such as this is but one small step in the battle to reduce P in my tank. As per zoox in corals and how it may effect it, again it does not pertain. zoox get 95 % of their nutrients from the coral itself, its only when the surrounding water is saturated that it ca cause a popluation explosion.
Eutrophication is again a completly different animal and doesnt pertain. It is an extreme condition that goes way beyond just nutrients. If you tank has this, start again, it will be easier.
On a reactor with RP running fl time. If thier is no available IP then it will just sit thier and do nothing, as IP is added to the tank the RP has an oppurtunity to remove it. I see nothing wrong with using it full time on an old or new system. I have also seen some tanks with outragious bioloads, that are being controlled with the use of it. Is it the only thing? nope but plays a big part. Is it a miricle cure, nope but it is an effective way to remove IP from your system.
As per iron leeching, what makes you assume that is happening?? is the ferric oxide soluable?? are you making it soluable??
Thier are a couple of things that kind of grow old in this hobby. One is the line "If it aint broke dont fix it" that one kind of kills me, lol. I have never been a big fan of watching a problem develop then waiting until its to late. If you had bald tires are you going to wait until the blow?? Ok I am on a roll so how about "The solution to polution is dillusion" Hmmm So it the solution to pollution really just to make a weaker concentration of the same polution?? Ok last one "the BB bandwagon" my friends this system has been in play before most folks here were born..come on now, lol

 

[NaH2O]

"The solution to polution is dillusion"

Mike, is "dillusion" a cross between dilution and delusion? If so, it makes perfect sense.....diluting the pollution is delusion that you are ridding your tank of it...Hmmm.....I believe you've coined a new catch phrase!